Bogus issues and labels

These are more helpful links for understanding the criminal background:

Vinculo (http)
Vinculo (http)

My point was that if complainant countries take a while to complain to UPU and UPU then take a while to issue their memo, is that the best option available to D for deciding whether or not an item is fake, bogus or otherwise illegal?

These are not even "directives" merely UPU passing on complaints by UPU members (valid or not). Sorry, the logic of this completely eludes me, but if D want to continue on that course, then fine...it is their site!

Side issue........were there no complaints to UPU during WWI, WW2, Chinese revolution, Russian revolution, Boer War etc etc as all issues by occupation forces or governments in exile seem to be "legal".

Do previously illegal issues become legal after international recognition of a country or passage of time? Or illegal if a country ceases to be recognised? These ex-USSR countries have been in existence for 20+ years.......

Time for a re-think?

Well that's a whole new can of worms you've just opened there, Em - wartime propaganda stamps

We're probably all familiar with the Nazi 'forgeries' purporting to be British stamps, as well as the 'Free India' and others; so when did these 'bogus issues' achieve respectability (and collectability)?

Likewise the famous forgeries such as Fourier, Joseph or Sperati? Many of their stamps are worth more than the originals (thought - has anyone started forging the forgeries yet?)

Then there's the official reprints, such as the 1870 Alsace issues, a set of which I sold for considerably more than the originals even though they were fully described

So perhaps we need to narrow down our definition, not widen it as has been happening - try and stick to the rigid definitions of bogus, illegal and fantasy as much as we can, and stop playing "ah but what about..." which is getting us nowhere. Unfortunately some genuine issues may fall through the cracks but that's probably the price we have to accept to rid ourselves of the rest of the dross

You'll notice I have omitted to mention Cinderellas - well they exist and they're legal, just not POSTAGE stamps which is what all the kerfuffle is about

Actually, I was not looking at wartime propaganda stamps (which is a fairly major collectors item) but the main issues themselves.

The criteria used by UPU is that if a member complains, UPU will issue a circular containing the complaint and D will exclude any issues complained about whether or not the complaint is valid.

At present, this seems to be restricted to African or ex-USSR countries where another country claims that the territory belongs to them and, therefore, all stamps issued by the disputed lands are "illegal" whether they are actually used for postage or not.

Fair enough....at a stretch.... but surely most European countries disputed the German occupations of WWI and WW2 & some "exiled governments" issued stamps too (Free French for instance). It seems that all of those issues are "legal". as are the issues of the Chinese Communists & the Nationalists in the late 40's, Rhodesia after Mr Smith's UDI in the 60's......the list is endless.

All I would like is uniformity of treatment of disputed territories of the 1990's with similarly disputed territories of the 1940's - 1960's.

As I said before, I do not sell the "illegal" issues so have no ax to grind. My very simple mind suggests that if a sticky bit of paper is legally sold by as a postage stamp by the postal authorities of country X, put on an envelope and the envelope is duly delivered to the recipient, then the sticky bit of paper is in all likelihood a postage stamp.

Does it really matter that country Y claims that the territory concerned is really theirs especially when the UPU complaint was made in the 1990's and territory Y has made no effort to reclaim its "lost" territory or to govern same for 10-20 years?.

Come on guys.....there must be a better and more realistic approach to the problem of getting rid of the truly bogus, fake, & issues that the postal authorities never authorised?

I agree that a narrower definition is necessary......but not the one used by D. Is it too basic to suggest that if a postal authority approved stamp is used for postage in any country then ipso facto it is a postage stamp? Anything else is not

Famous old forgeries, vignettes (Delandre et al), are certainly very collectible (I sell a fair quantity of mainly French vignettes myself ) but these are not postage stamps as you say and I would be more than happy to include all of these in a "not valid for postage" section or similar.

I've got to agree with you there, sorry if I didn't make much sense earlier but I'm not very cogent before breakfast (or afterwards either, actually)

We should stop trying to dot every I and cross every T on this issue and concentrate on the obvious revenue-generating 'wallpaper' issued by too many countries, and I'm almost tempted to include some of our own 'local' issues here, especially for those bits of offshore rock that don't have a resident population unless seabirds are smarter than we think! The problem is knowing where to draw the line - progressive proofs? 'accidental' inverted/double overprints? imperforate 'issues'? Take your pick

As for the 'are they or aren't they' issues, let's leave them alone for now - collecting is a broad church and I think we've demonstrated the only thing we agree on is disagreeing

Perhaps Delcampe would like to have another think about how best to approach this problem, maybe in discussion with members?

Hi...thanks for that. Most of the time I don't even know what cogent means let alone being it!.

Actually, I think that we do agree. There is a problem that D have tried to deal with via UPU circulars & moderator's efforts that is fraught with difficulties and anomalies.

D monitor this forum regularly & I support your suggestion for an ongoing discussion between them & with members in the interests of philately generally.. Over to D....... .

.

What Delcampe are dealing with is fraud which is a criminal offence in the vast majority of these cases.

The producers of much of this material deliberately choose poor third world countries or countries going through some sort of turmoil to flood the market with fake issues usually nothing at all to do with the country concerned. Who could possibly imagine Afghanistan under the Taliban regime issuing stamps depicting a scantilly clad Marilyn Monroe for example.

If the persons involved in the production and distribution of these items did this with the stamps of the UK they would be in prison very rapidly. What sort of support would they then get from the Philatelic fraternity?

Fraud is a criminal offence and persons who openly sell this type of material knowing it to be fraudulent are criminals.

Nit picking as to whether a fake Burundi or wherever issue should be allowed does not disguise this criminal activity. Parameters have to be set and as with most rules and regulations a few places will get caught up as 'illegal' when their status is doubtful. Simply do not try and sell this material unless Delcampe changes the rules to allow it. The most vociferous complainants seem to be persons whose Delcampe shops are full of dubious material. At the end of the day the purveyors of this material are cheating those who buy it and cheating the government of the country it purports to come from.

What is your point here? Nobody to date has disagreed with the basic premise that the illegals & fraudulent items must be eliminated from the site. It is the way that this is being done that members are putting under query.of

In any forum, the members are entitled to comment on the bet way forward to achieve the desired effect. I happen to think that the D methodology is flawed and need to be reconsidered. You are entitled to consider otherwise.

To date, the response from D to reasoned queries by several members has met with a deafening silence.......

My friend, I think that you started this link .......however, when you respond to any posting, may I suggest that you respond to what was actually said rather than comment on what was NOT said.

Sorry to say but, for me, this thread has lost its way and I am checking out of it. If D wish to take up the points made by any members posting, then they will.....if not, that too is up to them.

Good luck with the illegals elimination process....I do NOT sell them nor intend to..........

Bye everyone

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Perhaps interested persons like yourself should volunteer to act as Moderators? Then you will possibly see what a huge task falls to the few Moderators that there are who scratch at the surface of these issues.

All the Moderators are volunteers who act in that capacity do so in their spare time and there is a limit to what they can deal with. I should imagine the more Moderators there are the more these dubious fake items that are purely printed to cheat the unwary can be kept under some semblance of control.

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It is easy to report these items - less easy to control them on the site as there are too few Moderators for the task.

As I stated before if you feel strongly about these fake items you have taken the time to highlight and you have some time and the necessary knowledge why not apply to Moderate?

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(this account has been closed, not because of the forum, but because of the fact it was used to give feedbacks to another account belonging to the same person)

Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)

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