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Paypal payments in the new fees system

  • postcardsextra
    postcardsextra 100% (8963x)
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    137 messaggi

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    But surely, when calculating even just the basic income & expenditure totals (the money in and money out spreadsheets you mentioned) the income would be the gross amount received by you (including received into the paypal account), and the expenses would be all the allowable expenses paid by you (including the fees paid by you in the paypal account)
    But the fees have already been deducted by PayPal so the amounts paid from there into my business account are a true reflection of income. Why complicate things?

    Yes, it's important to record all income and expenditure within a tax year so I empty the PayPal account on the 5th April.

    HMRC are far more interested in online sellers who are evading tax rather than dealing with accountancy foibles. They understand how PayPal works and its fee structure.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    I've received a second email from support assking for clarification on some of my points. I wont provide a full copy here due to GDPR concerns.

    To assist their understanding I created a basic invoice template to make the delcampe/seller split clearer and show buyer fees etc.

    I also created a couple of flow diagrams to show how they have mucked up the flow of cash from buyer to seller/delcampe.

    Hope this is helpful for some here also.
    board board board
  • Account eliminato
    Account eliminato

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    Svezia

    But the fees have already been deducted by PayPal so the amounts paid from there into my business account are a true reflection of income. Why complicate things?

    Yes, it's important to record all income and expenditure within a tax year so I empty the PayPal account on the 5th April.

    HMRC are far more interested in online sellers who are evading tax rather than dealing with accountancy foibles. They understand how PayPal works and its fee structure.
    Le informazioni non sono più disponibili perché l'account di questo utente è stato eliminato (Regolamento RGPD).
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    Just sent a chaser to support. I've also requested a public acknowledgement of our concerns on the forums due to the importance of this matter in keeping any professional sellers on this site.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    No responce from my chaser 48 hours ago. Sent another (as a new ticket) to request an update. Issue has been sitting with management since 5 April now.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    We have a update on the french forums here Link (https)

    Hello,

    We understand that displaying the invoice as it currently appears is not ideal. The needs of the sellers were raised and discussed with Management. The decision was made to change the way the bill appears in the near future to meet this need.

    On the other hand, the fact that platform fees are borne by sellers is false. It is the buyers who pay them. We will not fail to include very clear wording to indicate the amount received by the seller in the new format invoice.

    Regarding emails you have received that do not present the information in the same way, the first capture corresponds to the copy of the payment request received by the buyer. This is therefore data presented for the buyer, which is why the presentation of costs differs and is less detailed. We can of course understand that this display may be confusing for the seller. This will also be changed, the buyer and seller will see the same statement in the new format invoice.

    Good day.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    We have a update on the french forums here Link (https)

    Hello,

    We understand that displaying the invoice as it currently appears is not ideal. The needs of the sellers were raised and discussed with Management. The decision was made to change the way the bill appears in the near future to meet this need.

    On the other hand, the fact that platform fees are borne by sellers is false. It is the buyers who pay them. We will not fail to include very clear wording to indicate the amount received by the seller in the new format invoice.

    Regarding emails you have received that do not present the information in the same way, the first capture corresponds to the copy of the payment request received by the buyer. This is therefore data presented for the buyer, which is why the presentation of costs differs and is less detailed. We can of course understand that this display may be confusing for the seller. This will also be changed, the buyer and seller will see the same statement in the new format invoice.

    Good day.
    And my response

    Thank you for the update.

    Unfortunately the sellers are acting as agents for your buyer fees in paypal at least.

    On my paypal statements I can see two transactions on my account. One is the buyer paying in full (including your fees). One is the fees being sent to your account. see ticket 533729 for an example

    No amount of wording on your invoices will change this. It needs a system change, or you need to invoice sellers for the collection of fees.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    I've also attached a screenshot
    board
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    Holding Response received.

    Please understand that once a question is escalated to our management, it might take some time to get an answer. This does not mean that your request has been forgotten. As customer service agents, we are always available to answer your questions in a short amount of time. However, our managers also have other duties and certain aspects may take longer to process. However, if we commit to getting back to you, we always keep our word. We can understand that these many changes are having an impact, but this is the case for all our users, and we therefore invite you to be patient. We always remain available to provide an explanation or to reply to your questions.

    Regarding invoices, they will be adapted in a near future. The price paid by the buyer and received by the seller will be detailed more clearly and legibly. We will keep you informed as soon as this change is made.

    Concerning Mangopay and Paypal fees:

    the seller has no Mangopay fees because Delcampe pays them
    for PayPal, the seller pays all the transaction fees (including platform fees), because PayPal cannot technically split partner fees between buyers and sellers. This is not Delcampe's decision: it is a PayPal technical constraint. The increase is generally minimal (depending on the country, we're talking about 10% on 2 to 3.4%, i.e. between 0.2 and 0.34%, which is still a minimal increase). However, as you use micropayments, this effectively increases Paypal fees by 0.5%. And if you sell a lot of slow-priced items, this can have an impact.

    Therefore, if you want to to reduce your costs, you can change your PayPal settings (and stop micropayments) or get paid via Mangopay, in which case Delcampe pays for the transaction fees. Another possibility is to offer your items in lots instead of selling them individually.
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
    PRO free

    873 messaggi

    Germania

    Holding Response received.

    Please understand that once a question is escalated to our management, it might take some time to get an answer. This does not mean that your request has been forgotten. As customer service agents, we are always available to answer your questions in a short amount of time. However, our managers also have other duties and certain aspects may take longer to process. However, if we commit to getting back to you, we always keep our word. We can understand that these many changes are having an impact, but this is the case for all our users, and we therefore invite you to be patient. We always remain available to provide an explanation or to reply to your questions.

    Regarding invoices, they will be adapted in a near future. The price paid by the buyer and received by the seller will be detailed more clearly and legibly. We will keep you informed as soon as this change is made.

    Concerning Mangopay and Paypal fees:

    the seller has no Mangopay fees because Delcampe pays them
    for PayPal, the seller pays all the transaction fees (including platform fees), because PayPal cannot technically split partner fees between buyers and sellers. This is not Delcampe's decision: it is a PayPal technical constraint. The increase is generally minimal (depending on the country, we're talking about 10% on 2 to 3.4%, i.e. between 0.2 and 0.34%, which is still a minimal increase). However, as you use micropayments, this effectively increases Paypal fees by 0.5%. And if you sell a lot of slow-priced items, this can have an impact.

    Therefore, if you want to to reduce your costs, you can change your PayPal settings (and stop micropayments) or get paid via Mangopay, in which case Delcampe pays for the transaction fees. Another possibility is to offer your items in lots instead of selling them individually.
    So no change to the actually important question. There is still no invoice to the sellers for the purchase fees. The change is of no use to me. I can't submit an invoice to the tax office as proof that is not addressed to me at all.
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
    PRO free

    873 messaggi

    Germania

    And about PayPal fees:
    It is we sellers who allow Delcampe to use this procedure to collect the purchase fees. And we are charged fees for this. With 2,000 payments per year, even the supposedly minimal 2 cents become 40 euros. This is an additional amount equal to the annual Club Gold membership costs. Delcampe alone made sure of this and did not choose a procedure in which this was not the case. But instead of being grateful, we are made to pay for it and even blame PayPal, even though they have not chosen or prescribed this procedure at all.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    So no change to the actually important question. There is still no invoice to the sellers for the purchase fees. The change is of no use to me. I can't submit an invoice to the tax office as proof that is not addressed to me at all.
    That was my thoughts also.

    I can just about live with the paypal fees, 2-6% of the fees value is annoying, but probably is outweighed by the increased sales given by accepting paypal. They just need to add a 'tough luck' paragraph to the charter, and its our choice whether to accept or not.

    I can't afford to have fees that are not backed up by an invoice so I can claim them as an allowable expense. On my lowest priced items I'm almost losing money without it - £0.10 actual income, £0.38 taxable income, that just does not make financial sense!
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    Still no answer to my ticket (which was closed last week). Got a 'please be paitient' message last week

    Asked about receiving an invoice on the Q and A, but got asked to open a ticket. Doing so now!
  • Account eliminato
    Account eliminato

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    Svezia

    Still no answer to my ticket (which was closed last week). Got a 'please be paitient' message last week

    Asked about receiving an invoice on the Q and A, but got asked to open a ticket. Doing so now!
    Le informazioni non sono più disponibili perché l'account di questo utente è stato eliminato (Regolamento RGPD).
  • martin52
    martin52 100% (18482x)
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    1647 messaggi

    Svizzera

    That was my thoughts also.

    I can just about live with the paypal fees, 2-6% of the fees value is annoying, but probably is outweighed by the increased sales given by accepting paypal. They just need to add a 'tough luck' paragraph to the charter, and its our choice whether to accept or not.

    I can't afford to have fees that are not backed up by an invoice so I can claim them as an allowable expense. On my lowest priced items I'm almost losing money without it - £0.10 actual income, £0.38 taxable income, that just does not make financial sense!
    it is also to mention, that we all have to pay the PayPal-fee TWICE ? At first to PayPal - as usual and the 2nd time hidden into Delcampe's own "partner fee".
    I am no longer in the age to believe to fairy-tales, such as "no MP-fee" (tell them to Lilifee)
    board
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    it is also to mention, that we all have to pay the PayPal-fee TWICE ? At first to PayPal - as usual and the 2nd time hidden into Delcampe's own "partner fee".
    I am no longer in the age to believe to fairy-tales, such as "no MP-fee" (tell them to Lilifee)
    You dont have to pay the paypal fee twice, but you do have to pay a percentange of the entire transaction cost (including buyer fees) for paypal as I showed in the first comment on this thread.

    The partner fee is the 'buyer' charges that should not be coming anywhere near your paypal account, but are in fact entering it, then being deducted from it afterwards to give your final amount.

    As a private seller that should not make a difference to you as you end up with the correct amount credited (less paypal fees). For professional sellers it causes issues with taxes as we get taxed on the gross amount we recieve, then have to account for the deduction.
  • Account eliminato
    Account eliminato

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    Svezia

    You dont have to pay the paypal fee twice, but you do have to pay a percentange of the entire transaction cost (including buyer fees) for paypal as I showed in the first comment on this thread.

    The partner fee is the 'buyer' charges that should not be coming anywhere near your paypal account, but are in fact entering it, then being deducted from it afterwards to give your final amount.

    As a private seller that should not make a difference to you as you end up with the correct amount credited (less paypal fees). For professional sellers it causes issues with taxes as we get taxed on the gross amount we recieve, then have to account for the deduction.
    Le informazioni non sono più disponibili perché l'account di questo utente è stato eliminato (Regolamento RGPD).
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messaggi

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    Holding Response received.

    Please understand that once a question is escalated to our management, it might take some time to get an answer. This does not mean that your request has been forgotten. As customer service agents, we are always available to answer your questions in a short amount of time. However, our managers also have other duties and certain aspects may take longer to process. However, if we commit to getting back to you, we always keep our word. We can understand that these many changes are having an impact, but this is the case for all our users, and we therefore invite you to be patient. We always remain available to provide an explanation or to reply to your questions.

    Regarding invoices, they will be adapted in a near future. The price paid by the buyer and received by the seller will be detailed more clearly and legibly. We will keep you informed as soon as this change is made.

    Concerning Mangopay and Paypal fees:

    the seller has no Mangopay fees because Delcampe pays them
    for PayPal, the seller pays all the transaction fees (including platform fees), because PayPal cannot technically split partner fees between buyers and sellers. This is not Delcampe's decision: it is a PayPal technical constraint. The increase is generally minimal (depending on the country, we're talking about 10% on 2 to 3.4%, i.e. between 0.2 and 0.34%, which is still a minimal increase). However, as you use micropayments, this effectively increases Paypal fees by 0.5%. And if you sell a lot of slow-priced items, this can have an impact.

    Therefore, if you want to to reduce your costs, you can change your PayPal settings (and stop micropayments) or get paid via Mangopay, in which case Delcampe pays for the transaction fees. Another possibility is to offer your items in lots instead of selling them individually.
    Support have got back to me.

    The response on 11 April was the management responce, but a second email got lost in the system last week.

    As that did not answer my concerns, I've asked again for an invoice and for them to confirm who is paying them by checking their own paypal statements.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30387x)
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    466 messaggi

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    Support have got back to me.

    The response on 11 April was the management responce, but a second email got lost in the system last week.

    As that did not answer my concerns, I've asked again for an invoice and for them to confirm who is paying them by checking their own paypal statements.
    I asked Paypal via paypal messaging about the Partner Fee,
    and they confirmed Partner Fee is "A fee charged by a host site who facilitate payments, [the partner] charge a % for commission". "Buyer does not pay the fee" and The partner has charged you for using their platform"
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
    PRO standard

    223 messaggi

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    I asked Paypal via paypal messaging about the Partner Fee,
    and they confirmed Partner Fee is "A fee charged by a host site who facilitate payments, [the partner] charge a % for commission". "Buyer does not pay the fee" and The partner has charged you for using their platform"
    Exactly, and if sellers are paying we requre an invoice or receipt.

    I'm giving Delcampe their 30 days, but I'm not holding out much hope of receiving one. After that who knows? I could dispute the paypal payments or go to HMRC direct and voice my concerns of no invoice and incorrect VAT being paid.
  • @miranda
    Amministratore
    @miranda

    516 messaggi

    Belgio

    I asked Paypal via paypal messaging about the Partner Fee,
    and they confirmed Partner Fee is "A fee charged by a host site who facilitate payments, [the partner] charge a % for commission". "Buyer does not pay the fee" and The partner has charged you for using their platform"
    Hi mjocovers,

    Partner fees (sometimes called "Partner commission" are what we call "Platform fees" those fees are paid by the buyer, contrary to what was said to you.

    Just check any PayPal payment that is recorded in your "Payments" page Link (https)
    Click on "See the detail", you will see on the right corner of the pop-up windonw the calculation of platfom fees.
    You'll see that the amount matches what PayPal calls "Partner fees/"Parner commission".

    Kind regards,
    Miranda
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
    PRO standard

    223 messaggi

    Regno Unito

    Hi mjocovers,

    Partner fees (sometimes called "Partner commission" are what we call "Platform fees" those fees are paid by the buyer, contrary to what was said to you.

    Just check any PayPal payment that is recorded in your "Payments" page Link (https)
    Click on "See the detail", you will see on the right corner of the pop-up windonw the calculation of platfom fees.
    You'll see that the amount matches what PayPal calls "Partner fees/"Parner commission".

    Kind regards,
    Miranda
    That is incorrect, and the paypal support are correct.

    The partner fees are entering the sellers paypal account, and then being deducted by yourself from there. Therefore the seller is paying you, not the buyer. Your paypal acount will show a transfer from the seller, not the buyer.

    If the buyer fees were deducted before it hit our account there would not be an issue, but it is and the issue seems to be being ignored even though it has been pointed out by multiple users.

    As I've stated multiple times this needs to be accounted for buy an invoice from Delcampe to the seller to recover the 'buyer' fees from their account.
  • @miranda
    Amministratore
    @miranda

    516 messaggi

    Belgio

    That is incorrect, and the paypal support are correct.

    The partner fees are entering the sellers paypal account, and then being deducted by yourself from there. Therefore the seller is paying you, not the buyer. Your paypal acount will show a transfer from the seller, not the buyer.

    If the buyer fees were deducted before it hit our account there would not be an issue, but it is and the issue seems to be being ignored even though it has been pointed out by multiple users.

    As I've stated multiple times this needs to be accounted for buy an invoice from Delcampe to the seller to recover the 'buyer' fees from their account.
    You are correct in saying that the partner fees are entering the seller's account but they correspond to our platform fees. They are then deducted from your payment as they are transferred to Delcampe.

    As explained to you the other day: on PayPal, sellers pay all the transaction fees (including those partner fees/platform fees) because PayPal cannot technically split partner fees between buyers and sellers. This is not Delcampe's decision: it's a PayPal technical constraint. There's nothing that will be done on our side.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
    PRO standard

    223 messaggi

    Regno Unito

    You are correct in saying that the partner fees are entering the seller's account but they correspond to our platform fees. They are then deducted from your payment as they are transferred to Delcampe.

    As explained to you the other day: on PayPal, sellers pay all the transaction fees (including those partner fees/platform fees) because PayPal cannot technically split partner fees between buyers and sellers. This is not Delcampe's decision: it's a PayPal technical constraint. There's nothing that will be done on our side.
    Thank you for the confirmation that you have noticed the technical issue.

    What juristiction is VAT is being paid on the 'buyer fees' (buyer, seller or Delcampe).

    Can you confirm if the same technical issue occurs in Mangopay, or that buyer fees do not enter the sellers account at all?
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
    PRO free

    873 messaggi

    Germania

    You are correct in saying that the partner fees are entering the seller's account but they correspond to our platform fees. They are then deducted from your payment as they are transferred to Delcampe.

    As explained to you the other day: on PayPal, sellers pay all the transaction fees (including those partner fees/platform fees) because PayPal cannot technically split partner fees between buyers and sellers. This is not Delcampe's decision: it's a PayPal technical constraint. There's nothing that will be done on our side.
    And because the entire amount enters our account, we also have to declare the entire amount to the tax office. We receive an invoice for each reduction, which we can then claim. No invoice, no tax reduction. We receive a statement from PayPal for the PayPal fees. That's good. But we also need an invoice for the Delcampe fees when we declare them to the tax office. And since the money goes to you, we also need the invoice from you. If we make 1000 PayPal payments with 1 euro Delcampe fees each, we would otherwise have to pay taxes for the 1000 euros Delcampe fees.

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