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Paypal payments in the new fees system

  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    A heads up to all (but especially those who do tax returns). Just had my first paypal payment under the new system. I've included a screengrab from paypal and from delcampes invoice showing the amounts only.

    The payment includes the 'buyers fees' and then deducts them. I asked this question in the Q and A and Sebastian said this wood not happen, we would only get the Seller amounts. This has two implications :

    You are paying additional paypal fees on the transaction (I'm on a microtransaction rate so pay 5p + 5% - I've paid an extra 9p on this sale for the buyer fees)

    It may have implications on your tax return as you need to declare the gross amount received then claim any allowable deductions. An allowable deduction needs an invoice/receipt and as these are buyer fees which I'll be asking for, but I'm not sure how delcampe can issue one. Worst case you have an additonal tax liability on the buyer fees as it's touched your account.

    The accounting in Mangopay is so poor the final issue may be present there also, but I have not received a payment by that method yet.
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  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    Question was asked at 39.50 in the english Q and a here Vinculo (https)
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    Question was asked at 39.50 in the english Q and a here Vinculo (https)
    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
    It is technical, but we have 3 entities Buyer, Seller, Delcampe.

    Before for a paypal sale :
    Buyer pays Seller for full amount. Seller then pays seller fees on receipt of an invoice from Delcampe at end of month.
    I then decare full turnover received from all sales to the tax office, then I declare allowable deductions (including the Delcame sale invoice) to get my taxable income from sales

    I was expecting from his answer that either :
    Buyer pays Delcampe for full amount. On receipt, Delcampe pays Seller for items and postage only.
    Or it is two transactions. Buyer pays fees to Delcampe. Buyer Pays Seller for items and postage only.
    Either way I only get paid for my items and postage. Delcampe fees are sent directly to delcampe. I can declare turnover on this easily.

    What actually happens for a paypal Sale :
    Buyer pays Seller for full amount including fees
    Delcampe then deducts buyer fees from Seller Paypal Account.
    This means I have increased turnover and paypal fees, and a deduction without an invoice from delcampe that I cannot claim back in my tax affairs.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    466 mensajes

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    It is technical, but we have 3 entities Buyer, Seller, Delcampe.

    Before for a paypal sale :
    Buyer pays Seller for full amount. Seller then pays seller fees on receipt of an invoice from Delcampe at end of month.
    I then decare full turnover received from all sales to the tax office, then I declare allowable deductions (including the Delcame sale invoice) to get my taxable income from sales

    I was expecting from his answer that either :
    Buyer pays Delcampe for full amount. On receipt, Delcampe pays Seller for items and postage only.
    Or it is two transactions. Buyer pays fees to Delcampe. Buyer Pays Seller for items and postage only.
    Either way I only get paid for my items and postage. Delcampe fees are sent directly to delcampe. I can declare turnover on this easily.

    What actually happens for a paypal Sale :
    Buyer pays Seller for full amount including fees
    Delcampe then deducts buyer fees from Seller Paypal Account.
    This means I have increased turnover and paypal fees, and a deduction without an invoice from delcampe that I cannot claim back in my tax affairs.
    I also just queried this. And received the following response from Delcampe.


    Miranda (Delcampe.net)

    Apr 3, 2024, 10:45 GMT+2

    Hello "mjocovers",

    "Thank you for your message.

    As it has always been the case, PayPal fees will be calculated on the total amount of the payment request.
    As PayPal is an optional payment method, the costs are borne by the seller.

    For example, if an invoice is made up as follows:

    Price of the item: EUR 100.00
    Platform fee: EUR 10.30
    Postage: EUR 5.00
    ---> Total amount : EUR 115.30

    PayPal fees will be calculated on the total amount of EUR 115.30"
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    I agree. Delcampe needs to supply sellers with a proper invoice from Delcampe for all the fees they take, because, contrary to what was promised, the fees do not bi-pass sellers, but appear in Sellers accounts.
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 mensajes

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    I also just queried this. And received the following response from Delcampe.


    Miranda (Delcampe.net)

    Apr 3, 2024, 10:45 GMT+2

    Hello "mjocovers",

    "Thank you for your message.

    As it has always been the case, PayPal fees will be calculated on the total amount of the payment request.
    As PayPal is an optional payment method, the costs are borne by the seller.

    For example, if an invoice is made up as follows:

    Price of the item: EUR 100.00
    Platform fee: EUR 10.30
    Postage: EUR 5.00
    ---> Total amount : EUR 115.30

    PayPal fees will be calculated on the total amount of EUR 115.30"
    I can just abouit live with the paypal charges (although I am asking them for a refund on all transactions until they update their terms and conditions to make this crystal clear).

    I can't live with the buyer fees entering my account and then leaving it . If they are not my fees they should not be coming into my account at all, and at minimum an invoice needs to be generated to recover them from me.

    In reality they have bought their own difficulties by moving the fees to the buyer (which was done to hide the huge fee increase). They could have simply started charging the seller fees as and when the sale occurs (as ebay did years ago) and there would be no issue, a cumulative invoice would be fine at the end of the month.
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  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    The invoices that Delcampe generates on behalf of sellers for Sales are also now completely inadequate, with no specific mention anywhere on them of the Delcampe fees.
    Yes I know the fees appear in the summary after payment, but they are nowhere mentioned on the actual invoices!. I don't have any accounting knowledge, but even I know that is not the way invoices are supposed to look like.
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  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 mensajes

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    The invoices that Delcampe generates on behalf of sellers for Sales are also now completely inadequate, with no specific mention anywhere on them of the Delcampe fees.
    Yes I know the fees appear in the summary after payment, but they are nowhere mentioned on the actual invoices!. I don't have any accounting knowledge, but even I know that is not the way invoices are supposed to look like.
    I thought they were inadaquate too. It should clearly be 2 invoices one from the seller, one from delcampe. Not sure what is going on with VAT on the buyers fees from them and what country it is being paid in. They should have a separate section showing fees (and VAT information if required in the buyers country).

    I know the UK will want VAT shown on the invoice to me (as a non VAT registered sole trader) for the recovery of buyer fees so they may end up having to pay tax twice on some invoices (in both the buyer's and sellers country) unless they are very careful.

    Got to consider what to put on customs forms as well. I'm probably going with the buyer price rather than my sales price with the current invoices as its not going to be clear to customs when they open the package, it will look like you are under pricing.
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
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    Alemania

    The invoices that Delcampe generates on behalf of sellers for Sales are also now completely inadequate, with no specific mention anywhere on them of the Delcampe fees.
    Yes I know the fees appear in the summary after payment, but they are nowhere mentioned on the actual invoices!. I don't have any accounting knowledge, but even I know that is not the way invoices are supposed to look like.
    Do you mean this overview? I don't see the sales/purchase fees anywhere. Furthermore, such a piece of paper is absolutely worthless. It doesn't even say that it's from Delcampe and my name isn't there anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if the tax office asked me whether I found the note in a bar.
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  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    And now I've just received my first payment via MangoPay, and the fees taken by Delcampe are not even specifically stated in the summary. Its ridiculous.

    Sellers, for all transactions, need proper invoices and receipts that clearly and unambiguously show either

    a) Just the Sellers Item Price & Postage , and nothing else (so only what the seller is charging for).
    or
    b) Like it was before the changes. Invoices that clearly itemise all the charges to the buyer, and proper itemised invoices for the seller from delcampe for the fees taken by Delcampe.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    Do you mean this overview? I don't see the sales/purchase fees anywhere. Furthermore, such a piece of paper is absolutely worthless. It doesn't even say that it's from Delcampe and my name isn't there anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if the tax office asked me whether I found the note in a bar.
    At least when you click on the paypal payments in that list you get a pop up box with fees which can be matched to the paypal account payment. With Mangopay you don't even get that!
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    And now I've just received my first payment via MangoPay, and the fees taken by Delcampe are not even specifically stated in the summary. Its ridiculous.

    Sellers, for all transactions, need proper invoices and receipts that clearly and unambiguously show either

    a) Just the Sellers Item Price & Postage , and nothing else (so only what the seller is charging for).
    or
    b) Like it was before the changes. Invoices that clearly itemise all the charges to the buyer, and proper itemised invoices for the seller from delcampe for the fees taken by Delcampe.
    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
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    Alemania

    At least when you click on the paypal payments in that list you get a pop up box with fees which can be matched to the paypal account payment. With Mangopay you don't even get that!
    Yes, I've seen that now. But that's not enough either. If I have 1800 PayPal payments (like last year), I would have to open 1800 popups and print them out individually. There is also no print function there and no option to save it as a PDF. And here, too, the page header in which Delcampe's name and mine can be read is missing. This must be printable or savable in a concise list or, even better, in a summary.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    466 mensajes

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    At least when you click on the paypal payments in that list you get a pop up box with fees which can be matched to the paypal account payment. With Mangopay you don't even get that!
    The Delcampe platform fee. The fee that Delcampe charges on each item sold.
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    Yes, I've seen that now. But that's not enough either. If I have 1800 PayPal payments (like last year), I would have to open 1800 popups and print them out individually. There is also no print function there and no option to save it as a PDF. And here, too, the page header in which Delcampe's name and mine can be read is missing. This must be printable or savable in a concise list or, even better, in a summary.
    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    At least when you click on the paypal payments in that list you get a pop up box with fees which can be matched to the paypal account payment. With Mangopay you don't even get that!
    As a seller I dont want anything to do with buyer fees (or import fees) on my mangopay statement (or transaction detail) its got nothing to do with me.

    I need to show the tax office a statement showing whats actually been received into my account, and buyer fees and import fees should not be touching my account.

    The buyer mangopay statement (and transaction detail) should show the details of both, and that they have been paid to Delcampe. They also ought to get a VAT receipt from Delcampe for the fees.
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    The Delcampe platform fee. The fee that Delcampe charges on each item sold.
    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
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    873 mensajes

    Alemania

    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
    No, that is not conceivable. If money flows from my money (PayPal account) to someone, the person who receives the money must invoice me for it. And that's Delcampe, not PayPal, when it comes to purchase fees. On the PayPal receipts I only see what I paid to PayPal, i.e. the pure PayPal fee. And even if PayPal lists this somewhere in passing, it is not enough to be considered proof because it is not from the final recipient of the money. There is no current receipt for April, otherwise I could attach a screenshot (anonymized) here.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30386x)
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    466 mensajes

    Reino Unido

    Yes, I've seen that now. But that's not enough either. If I have 1800 PayPal payments (like last year), I would have to open 1800 popups and print them out individually. There is also no print function there and no option to save it as a PDF. And here, too, the page header in which Delcampe's name and mine can be read is missing. This must be printable or savable in a concise list or, even better, in a summary.
    At the moment the only option is multiple time consuming screenshots that take in the Delcampe web address, and combining those with printing the inadequate invoices & payment receipts and the paypal account transaction record. Its a nightmare.
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    No, that is not conceivable. If money flows from my money (PayPal account) to someone, the person who receives the money must invoice me for it. And that's Delcampe, not PayPal, when it comes to purchase fees. On the PayPal receipts I only see what I paid to PayPal, i.e. the pure PayPal fee. And even if PayPal lists this somewhere in passing, it is not enough to be considered proof because it is not from the final recipient of the money. There is no current receipt for April, otherwise I could attach a screenshot (anonymized) here.
    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
    PRO free

    873 mensajes

    Alemania

    At the moment the only option is multiple time consuming screenshots that take in the Delcampe web address, and combining those with printing the inadequate invoices & payment receipts and the paypal account transaction record. Its a nightmare.
    I already had the issue with the insufficient evidence on March 10th. Reported to German support and listed everything that was missing. On March 12th I received an answer. "Thank you for your message and your detailed feedback. I will be happy to forward your comments and suggestions for improvement to my development colleagues. I hope that we can display and offer a more user-friendly overview in the future.". That's all. I haven't heard anything on the matter since.
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    As a seller I dont want anything to do with buyer fees (or import fees) on my mangopay statement (or transaction detail) its got nothing to do with me.

    I need to show the tax office a statement showing whats actually been received into my account, and buyer fees and import fees should not be touching my account.

    The buyer mangopay statement (and transaction detail) should show the details of both, and that they have been paid to Delcampe. They also ought to get a VAT receipt from Delcampe for the fees.
    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
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    Alemania

    Los datos ya no están disponibles porque la cuenta de este usuario ha sido eliminada (Reglamento RGPD)
    I sold a card today that costs 80 cents, plus 1.20 euros for shipping. I then sent the customer a payment request via the Delcampe system. It says (regardless of any payment methods): "Dear Mr. Müller, Mr. Heihse (that's me) will issue you an invoice and ask you to pay it to him. Then it will be listed: card 1.18 euros, shipping 1, 20 euros, a total of 2.38 euros. So I also bill the customer for the Delcampe fees, even though I'm not entitled to them, and even ask him to pay them to me. It doesn't say anywhere that the purchase price is only 80 cents. If If I show this to the tax office, they will ask me why I only stated 2.00 euros as income there, it would clearly say 2.38 euros. But if I declare 2.38 euros to the tax office, I need it from Delcampe an invoice for the 38 cents.

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