UPU circular 214

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UPU circulars are often about counterfeit/bogus/illegal/etc stamps.

Link (http)

Not had chance to look any further cos it's bedtime.

Did the Moderator specifically mention any particular items you have for sale? Have you any items for sale that may fall into the above categories?

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Moderator %mod-henryk refers us to UPU circulars of more than 10 years old, which CORRECTLY qualify ALL those beautiful topical labels as BOGUS and completely illegal. They certainly should be removed to avoid abuse of the hobby of non-so-experienced stamp collectors.
However, this moderator, does not understand that SOME of the non-Russian areas have REALLY gained independence - much later than those UPU circulars were published. Such countries are Transniestria, Karabakh, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Those countries are INDEPENDENT, they have their own Postal services (as well as Flags, Anthems, etc).
The UPU has never published any "update" regarding issues of those countries after Independence. Because the UPU is not a political institution. The moment you declare issues of Independent States (more or less recognized by other countries) as being illegal, the same moment you declare their very Independence being illegal.
This turns into violation of rights of nations for independence, and Delcampe is hardly the right field for such political activity. Any citizen of say Nagorno-Karabakh Republic may easily bring this matter to International Court and win the case.

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I like your expression: Delcampe decides what is listed on the Delcampe site - not you! Perfect. Only you forget to add that not being the one to DECIDE, I have the right to be the one you has an opinion.
My post on this Forum was aimed at bringing a certain matter to Community's attention, to see what people think about it. I am honored by the fact that YOU are the first to respond. Unfortunately, instead of telling something about arguments, you post a PERSONAL message to me. And in a dictator style, which doesn't do you any honor.

Delcampe staff has informed me that they ask moderators to RESPECT sellers. When I read expressions like "you are perfectly free to go elsewhere" - I ask myself: did they forget %mod_henryk?

No, sorry, Philippe did not explain "why". I told this to him too. He only sent a web page with a list of UPU members, stating by mistake that THAT is the list of countries authorized to issue stamps. I wait for his clarification, and ask you too: didn't you notice that the list of officially stamp-issuing countries is almost twice larger that the list of UPU members. Is Delcampe closing listings of countries like Faroe, Greenland, Taiwan, Marshal, Madeira, Aland.... etc. No!

So please explain - to COMMUNITY, not only to me - what exactly does Delcampe mean when they say that their policy regarding labels is based on UPU. On UPU - what? Member list? You see that doesn't work. On Circulars? That's fine with me. Why don't you just show me a circular which calls issues of Independent Abkhazia or Osetia, etc - illegal. Just show me, and I'll calm down. After all, I have around 4000 listings, of which hardly a dozen fall into that category. It's easier to throw them away, than to "discuss" when you are the only discussing side (while the other side is only threatening and commanding and saying "I am not going to argue with you!").

Most important: I, and probably many other sellers, would like to understand these passages in Delcampe's February newsletter. Citing -
""Other labels will be tolerated insofar as the seller clearly indicates the word "LABEL", in capital letters at the beginning of the title. The seller will also exclusively need to place his sale in the following category: "Stamps > Topics > Fantasy labels". ""

WHICH are those "other labels"?
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ALL SELLERS CONCERNED. Explain this!!! What goes in category "FL" ?
We see a classification of labels in that newsletter. With my limited mental abilities, I suppose that issues of Abkhazia, etc. are somewhere in these 2 categories:
2.2. Labels bearing the name of a place (country, region) which exists or has existed, but has never issued postage stamps.
2.3. Labels bearing the name of a place (country, region) which exists or has existed and issues or has issued postage stamps.

If so, why are they being CLOSED, but not moved to "Fantasy labels"?
Note, I am not talking about that real garbage of 1990s and almost till the end of 2000's. I am most severe enemy of those "stamps". And - NOTE - UPU circulars all refer to them, they even contain huge lists of "issues".
MY ITEMS ARE NOT LISTED THERE. Which means UPU does not consider them illegal.
So: based on Delcampe's Newsletter regarding new policies in respect of "labels" I - on behalf of members of this Forum - ask you or Delcampe staff to clarify - WHY are issues of modern "problematic" semi-recognized States REMOVED, and why they should not be left on sale as "Fantasy labels?"
This could be a good compromise, which would cover the problems not only with Abkhazia, Karabakh, Transniestria... but also Turkish Cyprus, Palestine, Taiwan and whichever other countries are not yet UPU members.

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I do not sell this type of material so have no ax to grind.

Delcampe have chosen to exclude all items blacklisted by UPU and the moderator is correct on that basis (although I might have selected different words to outline your choices if I was writing to you!). That is Delcampe's choice, right or wrong.

I know that the UPU lists are not perfect, that circular 214 is 10+ years old and that the legal status of some of the territories on the ex-USSR UPU list is now different. However.....UPU has not changed their list yet.

I also agree that there might be quite valid reasons for including some issues, perhaps, as locals or labels but if D has decided to exclude en bloc....so be it.

I do not see that membership of UPU is particularly relevant. As far as I am aware, none of the remaining British Overseas territories are members of UPU &, of course, neither is Taiwan (as you point out).

As with all things, I expect that matters will settle down in due course.....in the meantime, I see that there are zillions of this type of "banned" material openly advertised for sale on other sites or auctions, so sellers have plenty of choice where to move them.

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Hello Vargur,

I am sorry but what you say is not true.

I have sent you an email on Wednesday (beginning of the afternoon) about countries or regions like Abkhazia, Ossetia, ....

Please find a copy hereby :

"You can find on this website all the UPU member countries which are authorized to issue stamps:

Link (http)

As you certainly know, Abkhazia and Ossetia are not listed because their independence has not been officially recognized by the International Community, only by ... Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Nauru, Vanuatu, Tuvalu and other not-recognized regions like Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh (who cannot issue stamps either) ! A majority of sovereign states recognize Abkhazia as an integral part of Georgia and support its territorial integrity according to the principles of international law.

That means that these labels are not allowed on the Delcampe website (neither in the "Fantasy labels" category)."

I urge you to read the list of countries more carefully, and you will see that stamps from Faroe, Greenland, Taiwan, Marshal, Madeira, Aland.... are legally issued.

Hi Pierre,

So how about

1.) Republic of China (ROC) Taiwan ?

2.) Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus ?

3.) Palestinian Authority ?

If all is about membership of UPU the above do not qualify for listing.

If those two countries above are qualified for have stamps listed at Delcampe then consequently some more countries should be qualified as we well as they are also de facto accepted by 99 % of UPU members for routing and forwarding their mail to final destination with their stamps used as postage as Nagorno Karabakh among others.

Cheers
EL Gringo

Hi Philippe, Hi Everybody.

I think this is my last post on this Forum, and maybe will not try contacting D on this matter any more. Just tired.

1) A word to Philippe first. Yes, I got that message of yours; what I did not get till now is your comment on my objections. Do some web pages show different content to dofferent people? You "urge me to read the list of countries more carefully, and you (I) will see that stamps from Faroe, Greenland, Taiwan, Marshal, Madeira, Aland.... are legally issued."
I read every word on the page - did not find any hint on those countries.... Where is it?
2) Thanks folks for reacting to my previous post. I'm touched.

Couple of PRINCIPAL thoughts, be they subjective.

A) Delcampe is for COLLECTORS, mainly and originally for philatelists. Delcampe should not be politically engaged. UPU on the other hand, is political structure.
Stamp collectors want stamps of their interest. Apart from majority of "simple" collectors, there are lovers of "errors", "locals", "provisional issues", De-Luxes (which have nothing to do with postal service, ABSOLUTELY nothing, but are officially issued by France, Belgium... well, you know better), etc, and even of "fakes / forgeries" Some KNOWN forgeries cost a hell of a money! Catalogues of FORGERIES exist!
Some stamp collectors are specially interested in issues of Exile Governments (like issues entitles Sahara Occidental), issues of ARMIES - can you imagine? - like Wrangel, etc, issues of other provisional powers that existed hardly more than one month - examples are plentiful (all kind of Civil War issues - Spain, Russia, Italy, CHINA - millions), etc.
Delcampe must be open for buyers and sellers of such EXCLUSIVE material.

B) UPU is about postal service, not about PHILATELY. If Delcampe does not accept this NOW, will accept later. In category STAMPS, "philatelic material" should be listed - NOT postally usable postage stamps.

C) Among other things, there is HISTORY, events in social and political life. Among those events,- newly emerging countries. Not much of Western Europe and America knows what is people's struggle for independence. When they gain independence paying with death of their children and mothers, complete descruction of their homes, they simply spit on such things as UPU, they don't even think much about being "recognized". And certainly, that strugle is not about crazy people called "philatelists".
New country emerges and seeks recognition, organizes its life, elects leaders, Flags, etc, and also - starts printing its postage stamps and currency.
Now, what? Russia and 5 others establish diplomatic relations with Abkhazia and Osetia, USA and Belgium and all the rest - DO NOT. Russia and others do not recognize Kosova, USA and others recognize. Cyprus protests against Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus, someone else accepts it (and Delcampe does not ban their "stamps").

D) SO WHAT?? I am asking - so what? What does this have to do with a HOBBY called "stamp collecting", "numismatics" etc. Nothing. New state issues stamps and franks letters with stamps; sometimes issues stamps and there's no post office to frank a letter with them. Some issue themselves, even in awful quality (remember Vietnam stamps on rice paper, remember ungummed unperforated stamps of new post-USSR countries, remember those endless overprints? - they all cost good money and are hunted by collectors), other ask other countries to print their stamps and pay by a part of the printing run. Karabakh pints in Holland, and Dutch dealers have those stamps a few months earlier that Armenians. This creates an illusion that "those stamps have never seen their countries". Incorrect: it's matter of CONTRACT - we wil print your stamps and keep 20,000 as payment, and you promise not to sell during next 6 months. That's the trick. Ever with wealthy states like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan...

All these stamps are REAL philatelic material and should be sold on philatelic market like Delcampe.

E) There are mirriads of "stamps" printed on behalf of various regions and even existing countries. Stamps inscribed Kalmykia or Buriatia (in short, bearing a name of non existing "country") are NOT STAMPS. Stamps collectors (naive, amateur beginners) MUST BE PROTECTED FROM SUCH GARBAGE. THIS must be banned, but still not completely! If seller "tells" (or writes in title) that "this is no stamp" - then why not sell them. For full protection, they may even be exiled from STAMP category, why not? Just don't place categories like "cinderella", "bogus", "Labels" as sub-categories of "STAMPS". Move them completely OUTSIDE stamps.
This is the best answer to the question "What should be placed in Fantasy Labels" category, the question that I am asking and never getting an answer.

D) Last: there are thousands of issues on behalf of existing countries, like San Tome, Mali and many others. Printed elsewhere, then - ATTENTION! - either legalized or not. How? I'll tell. The guys who print them - probably... ask postal authorities to declare them legal. Sometimes this is not done, but stamps start circulating. FINDING THESE FAKE LABELS IS MOST DIFFICULT TASK. The only way to tell is wait a year and see, which of thm will be listed by Michel. No other way.

RESUME:
Delcampe! Detach yourself from the UPU! You are about stamps collecting, not about postal service. If you are ready to object now saying that stamps are for franking mail - forget that idea. They WERE that when Sir R. Hill was alive. Have you ever stuck a De-Luxe block on a letter? Or one on thick gold foil? Do you use color proofs to send a Valentine? Never.
CRITERION for "philatelic material" should be the RECOGNIZED international and national catalogues - as a MINIMUM. Not UPU circulars. Remember, even Michel does not know everything, national catalogues may save in such cases. CATALOGUES, Sir.

Delcampe! Serve collectors, and sell whatever those crazy people want to collect. Some of them die to get Monroe's old panties - so sell them. Only demand from sellers to be honest and give full and fair description.

Delcampe! Stop exaggerating things. Fighting stamp-like garbage is great idea, but reaching the blind alley of restricting "official" to UPU-membership or UPU circulars - will only damage your business. Have you ever realized that UPU circulars are IN FACT only citations of LETTERS of certain postal authorities?? Post of Azerbaijan WRITES to UPU that Karabakh stamps are not legal. OF COURSSE!! Did you expect that government to recognize Karabagh as independent country? Post of Morocco WRITES a letter to UPU that Sahara is illegal - OF COURSE! But where's the CIRCULAR? We see only citations. UPU itself doesn't know anything, or most wisely doesn't want to interfere; UPU only cites letters!

I'm happy if a couple of you managed to read this to the end.
Hugs,
Vargur

Hi Vagur, Philippe and Others,

I managed to read all your mai Vagur.

The best part was;

=====================================================
"Labels" as sub-categories of "STAMPS". Move them completely OUTSIDE stamps."
=====================================================

I totally agree and I´ve suggested the same since the "label category appeared" and that should be a good fist step.

Secondly, "politics has nothing to do with stamp collecting".

That´s the beautiful part of this hobby. Still Americans (people from USA) can´t get a hand on Cuban stamps issued after Babtista legally but today North Korean stamps are OK for Americans but it wasn´t like that before but today they are even listed by Scott. (The North Korean stamps but not the Cuban stamps.)

North Korean "Take on me", live in Kirkenes, Norway.

Link (http)

The stamp world is a wonderful world; We can shake hands with anyone, exchange stamps, buy and sell, regardless nation of the stamps or person and do it by mail too. There´s only about 10 countries which have problems with one or more neighbours regarding stamps and definitely not Belgium or Luxembourg.

Shall "The 10" rule The World of Peaceful Stamp Collecting?

By the way,
=====================================================
When a piece of whatever material is valid for to pay for a mailing
by attaching it on the mail and it will be forwarded to the chosen destination; Then it is a postage stamp.
=====================================================

Cheers
El Gringo

P.S.S . Did you heard that story about Turkey protested about the new Armenian flag when Armenia got independent?

Turkish President:
-Ararat is our mountain so you can´t have it on your flag!

Armenian President: Is the moon yours?

P.S. My older post was of course to Philippe and not to Pierre.

I guess that none of this will happen until the UPU reminds itself of the original reasons that it was set up in 1874 & stops acting like a closed session no appeal Court-martial..........me, a dreamer?

To quote the 60's song........"When the moon is in the seventh house & Jupiter aligns with Mars.........." Words are rather "icky" but the sentiment is there.

Happy collecting everyone.....

Hello,

The UPU confucion!

Well, United Nations have 193 members and UPU 191 members (yes UPU is today an organ within UN) and when a country apply for a membership of UPU that is accepted automatically. However if 2/3 of the UN Assembly vote for a country, which is not a member of UN, a membership will be granted for UPU, despite not being a member of UN.

What has this with philately to do? Nothing at all!
UPU Cook Islands
Link (http)

Which members of UN are not members of UPU and are there any
countries not members of UN but members of UPU? That depends
which day it is when you put the question.

It is the members of UPU who is forwarding the mail from another UPU
member who acts as a forwarder for a non member of UN or UPU. Therefore you can send or receive mail with stamps from Andorra (member of UN but not member of UPU and Taiwan (not member of UN and not member of UPU) and from other non-members as well.

You can even send a letter from Cuba to USA despite the American blockade as it´s routed via Mexico despite both Cuba and USA are members of UPU.

I believe by time Delcampe will list countries, which are not UPU members but de facto co-operate with UPU members for to get their mail forwarded and is accepted for listing at Delcampe as it´s done already for at least two and for years.

A very small list for missing countries exists, probably less than 10. Perhaps Nagorno Karabakh, Turkish Cyprus and South Sudan may pop up sooner than later and others by time as Kosovo if not already and those small ex-ex-russian sub divisions and Bayouland, Grenada Grenadines, Manchuko, Nevis, Qu´aiti State in Hadhramaut ... oops the list grows but isn´t all about what is a "stamp country" and we want them all?

Opps I forgot South Sudan - UPU have 192 members.

Patience is a virtue,
El Gringo

P.S. Refering to my old post, again, at "CATEGORIES" as labels and
illegal stamps are so much easier to sort out than politics and procedures.

Link (http)

P.S.S. Do you know from which country this postpillar is?
You can put in any letter and it will be delivered to whatever
country in the world. A hint for where the postpillar might be;
-You can even use it for get letters sent to the Republic of Cyprus!

Link (http)

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