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US postcards: when?

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    It's the one titled "Cartes postales US"; you'll see my name twice. It started as a discussion about the US propensity to re-do PCs with obviously fake colorization or drawing in of features--several examples are shown. I'm not sure if they're talking about a specific printing process. They seem to show many 'white border era' and linen cards. I think it has to do with that 'colored dot' process--you know the dots you see under a magnifier. They don't seem to be discussing those (what I associate with) WWI boy/girl colorized French photo cards. I correspond with Soka3 from time to time and she(?) uses the term 'vrai photo couleur' but this doesn't seem to mean a 'colored RPPC'. . .

    Anyway, the main question is "when was the first XXX produced in the US" What is "XXX"? je ne sais pas.

    Maybe the cajun cousin can help? :)
    • Aangemaakt 16 nov 2006 op 21:13
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    Frankrijk

    It's the one titled "Cartes postales US"; you'll see my name twice. It started as a discussion about the US propensity to re-do PCs with obviously fake colorization or drawing in of features--several examples are shown. I'm not sure if they're talking about a specific printing process. They seem to show many 'white border era' and linen cards. I think it has to do with that 'colored dot' process--you know the dots you see under a magnifier. They don't seem to be discussing those (what I associate with) WWI boy/girl colorized French photo cards. I correspond with Soka3 from time to time and she(?) uses the term 'vrai photo couleur' but this doesn't seem to mean a 'colored RPPC'. . .

    Anyway, the main question is "when was the first XXX produced in the US" What is "XXX"? je ne sais pas.

    Maybe the cajun cousin can help? :)
    • Aangemaakt 16 nov 2006 op 21:13
    • #111406
    Hi Alan, thanks a lot for your help and messages on both sides of this transoceanic forum!
    My initial questions were (same as here):
    - when was this type of postcards made? and that was pretty much answered, esp with the help of the Curt Teich archive; by "type of postcards" I was referring to the retouched color cards, not specifically linen;
    - why the retouching: aesthetics, technics, both or otherwise? this question is still unanswered!
    - were they always from photographs? retouched only or redrawn? there has been some talk about this, mostly in favour of "from photographs".

    Then new questions arose, about the printing process(es), which always seems to involve a sreen ("color dots") even in early XXth; linen making was not really discussed.

    And many postcard were shown just for the fun of it, and because we love them! (yes I do even if I said above that I prefer unretouched unscreened B&W for the sake of the subject!)

    And yes, many other subject matters were involved aside, which is why I enjoy this forum!
    And: I never drink Coke, I never drink pastis either so that's even.
    And: I never go to McD's BUT I enjoyed the food a lot when I visited the States, good sandwiches, excellent fresh hamburgers, great roadside booth chilis... :D

    "Vraie photo couleur" means "real color photograph": can't be used to describe a postcard! Maybe Soka means a "color stenciled B&W real photo postcard"? (gets a bit complicated here). We call "colorisée" a color stenciled B&W postcard (as well as movies); "stencil" or "stencil plate" is called "pochoir"; "stencil" in French only means that cheap printing process that was used for small numbers of copies before xerox days.

    OK for now, have a good night over there, I'm just late for lunch!
    Manu
    :beer:

    And a British postcard for a change. Hey, wot's that, a Stone Railway??
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  • alan65
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    Hi Alan, thanks a lot for your help and messages on both sides of this transoceanic forum!
    My initial questions were (same as here):
    - when was this type of postcards made? and that was pretty much answered, esp with the help of the Curt Teich archive; by "type of postcards" I was referring to the retouched color cards, not specifically linen;
    - why the retouching: aesthetics, technics, both or otherwise? this question is still unanswered!
    - were they always from photographs? retouched only or redrawn? there has been some talk about this, mostly in favour of "from photographs".

    Then new questions arose, about the printing process(es), which always seems to involve a sreen ("color dots") even in early XXth; linen making was not really discussed.

    And many postcard were shown just for the fun of it, and because we love them! (yes I do even if I said above that I prefer unretouched unscreened B&W for the sake of the subject!)

    And yes, many other subject matters were involved aside, which is why I enjoy this forum!
    And: I never drink Coke, I never drink pastis either so that's even.
    And: I never go to McD's BUT I enjoyed the food a lot when I visited the States, good sandwiches, excellent fresh hamburgers, great roadside booth chilis... :D

    "Vraie photo couleur" means "real color photograph": can't be used to describe a postcard! Maybe Soka means a "color stenciled B&W real photo postcard"? (gets a bit complicated here). We call "colorisée" a color stenciled B&W postcard (as well as movies); "stencil" or "stencil plate" is called "pochoir"; "stencil" in French only means that cheap printing process that was used for small numbers of copies before xerox days.

    OK for now, have a good night over there, I'm just late for lunch!
    Manu
    :beer:

    And a British postcard for a change. Hey, wot's that, a Stone Railway??
    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 05:44
    • #111458
    Thanks so much, Manug (and cajunsr--I'd used the "XXX" to mean something unknown, not something we all know. . . !)

    I understood the pochoir=stencil but I think of my kids' stencils not the 'little dots' screen printing process. Well, my vocabulary is poor when it comes to English terms regarding printing processes, let alone the French terms.

    Will try to download some of the pictures from the linen book--they appear to be artist's drawings of photographs; depending on the artist and the company--Curteich had some of the best artists, paper and equipment--the pictures come out more or less realistically. Different companies could potentially use the same photograph--their own artist would do it somewhat differently. The night scene of the ship at the '39 New York World's Fair is illustrated in Werther and Mott's book by the way. Why one day and one night image?--more sales!

    They really remind me Soviet B&W photos form the 30s-40s that one sees with faces redrawn, especially one of the mining cards you first showed. Searching quickly through my cards, I find a Detroit Publishing color card from 1899 done without the screen process; there is one from c.1907 (postmarked October, 1907) which is done from a photo with the screen process. So, somewhere in between those years.

    Here's a question for you: in the US we used to develop the film negative directly onto postcard-back paper. These would be photographs *and* postcards, right? Did this exist in Europe? What years?

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    Thanks so much, Manug (and cajunsr--I'd used the "XXX" to mean something unknown, not something we all know. . . !)

    I understood the pochoir=stencil but I think of my kids' stencils not the 'little dots' screen printing process. Well, my vocabulary is poor when it comes to English terms regarding printing processes, let alone the French terms.

    Will try to download some of the pictures from the linen book--they appear to be artist's drawings of photographs; depending on the artist and the company--Curteich had some of the best artists, paper and equipment--the pictures come out more or less realistically. Different companies could potentially use the same photograph--their own artist would do it somewhat differently. The night scene of the ship at the '39 New York World's Fair is illustrated in Werther and Mott's book by the way. Why one day and one night image?--more sales!

    They really remind me Soviet B&W photos form the 30s-40s that one sees with faces redrawn, especially one of the mining cards you first showed. Searching quickly through my cards, I find a Detroit Publishing color card from 1899 done without the screen process; there is one from c.1907 (postmarked October, 1907) which is done from a photo with the screen process. So, somewhere in between those years.

    Here's a question for you: in the US we used to develop the film negative directly onto postcard-back paper. These would be photographs *and* postcards, right? Did this exist in Europe? What years?

    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 10:19
    • #111494
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    Thanks so much, Manug (and cajunsr--I'd used the "XXX" to mean something unknown, not something we all know. . . !)

    I understood the pochoir=stencil but I think of my kids' stencils not the 'little dots' screen printing process. Well, my vocabulary is poor when it comes to English terms regarding printing processes, let alone the French terms.

    Will try to download some of the pictures from the linen book--they appear to be artist's drawings of photographs; depending on the artist and the company--Curteich had some of the best artists, paper and equipment--the pictures come out more or less realistically. Different companies could potentially use the same photograph--their own artist would do it somewhat differently. The night scene of the ship at the '39 New York World's Fair is illustrated in Werther and Mott's book by the way. Why one day and one night image?--more sales!

    They really remind me Soviet B&W photos form the 30s-40s that one sees with faces redrawn, especially one of the mining cards you first showed. Searching quickly through my cards, I find a Detroit Publishing color card from 1899 done without the screen process; there is one from c.1907 (postmarked October, 1907) which is done from a photo with the screen process. So, somewhere in between those years.

    Here's a question for you: in the US we used to develop the film negative directly onto postcard-back paper. These would be photographs *and* postcards, right? Did this exist in Europe? What years?

    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 10:19
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    Frankrijk

    Thanks so much, Manug (and cajunsr--I'd used the "XXX" to mean something unknown, not something we all know. . . !)

    I understood the pochoir=stencil but I think of my kids' stencils not the 'little dots' screen printing process. Well, my vocabulary is poor when it comes to English terms regarding printing processes, let alone the French terms.

    Will try to download some of the pictures from the linen book--they appear to be artist's drawings of photographs; depending on the artist and the company--Curteich had some of the best artists, paper and equipment--the pictures come out more or less realistically. Different companies could potentially use the same photograph--their own artist would do it somewhat differently. The night scene of the ship at the '39 New York World's Fair is illustrated in Werther and Mott's book by the way. Why one day and one night image?--more sales!

    They really remind me Soviet B&W photos form the 30s-40s that one sees with faces redrawn, especially one of the mining cards you first showed. Searching quickly through my cards, I find a Detroit Publishing color card from 1899 done without the screen process; there is one from c.1907 (postmarked October, 1907) which is done from a photo with the screen process. So, somewhere in between those years.

    Here's a question for you: in the US we used to develop the film negative directly onto postcard-back paper. These would be photographs *and* postcards, right? Did this exist in Europe? What years?

    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 10:19
    • #111494
    Hi Alan,
    Yes it does! or rather, it did, I think this was mostly in the 1900-20's.
    But in fact I'm not too sure about European PC history as well! but I don't remember seing any more recent than that.
    We call them "cartes-photos", which is NOT the same as "véritable photo(graphie)" as you guess! (if I got it right, RPPC for you).
    They are postcards to the purists who collect anything as long as "postcard" is written there (I'm not being critic!), and they are photographs to those who care more for the image side!
    Many identification requests on our forum relate to cartes-photos, usually a shop with family and no background! Some of mine were too, such as the "submarine" mystery.

    Here is one from Germany... without "postkarte" but with the stamp and address marks... What does that make of it? :dunno:
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    Frankrijk

    Hi Alan,
    Yes it does! or rather, it did, I think this was mostly in the 1900-20's.
    But in fact I'm not too sure about European PC history as well! but I don't remember seing any more recent than that.
    We call them "cartes-photos", which is NOT the same as "véritable photo(graphie)" as you guess! (if I got it right, RPPC for you).
    They are postcards to the purists who collect anything as long as "postcard" is written there (I'm not being critic!), and they are photographs to those who care more for the image side!
    Many identification requests on our forum relate to cartes-photos, usually a shop with family and no background! Some of mine were too, such as the "submarine" mystery.

    Here is one from Germany... without "postkarte" but with the stamp and address marks... What does that make of it? :dunno:
    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 17:42
    • #111547
    Oops sorry, meaningless without the back! Let's try again:
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    Frankrijk

    Oops sorry, meaningless without the back! Let's try again:
    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 17:44
    • #111548
    That's more like it! Hey Seb, when do we get a chance to erase our own messages, pleaaaaase? ;)

    Now of course, you know about this possibility? :D

    Byebye you guys,
    Manu :beer:
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    That's more like it! Hey Seb, when do we get a chance to erase our own messages, pleaaaaase? ;)

    Now of course, you know about this possibility? :D

    Byebye you guys,
    Manu :beer:
    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 17:46
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    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 01:16
    • #113539
    Hi LMDC,
    Thanks for those nice comments!
    I've just been learning a lot these last 3 months on the "Dellcamp" forums... I just picked RPPC here and used it 5 minutes later...
    "Vrai" or "Véritable": Vrai does mean veritable as well as true, so you can use both. "Véritable" is probably more "market-friendly" (yes, we too!) ... But it would have to be VraiE: La photo.
    My choice would be to stick to what's written on the card.

    If I stopped at that gas station, I would take a look at the real Mississippi, not the postcard...
    Just like here:
    Link (http)
    Link (http)

    As a result of these posts (on the French side), I was compelled to buy this "atomic" 1948 Curteich linen from cousin Naguito... while some discuss dissecting postcards to find out whether there actually is fabric in there...
    In my opinion: No there isn't! :no: It's just a texture pressed into the paper by some means... before or after printing? ;) The Quest goes on, caïmons!
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    Hi Alan,
    Yes it does! or rather, it did, I think this was mostly in the 1900-20's.
    But in fact I'm not too sure about European PC history as well! but I don't remember seing any more recent than that.
    We call them "cartes-photos", which is NOT the same as "véritable photo(graphie)" as you guess! (if I got it right, RPPC for you).
    They are postcards to the purists who collect anything as long as "postcard" is written there (I'm not being critic!), and they are photographs to those who care more for the image side!
    Many identification requests on our forum relate to cartes-photos, usually a shop with family and no background! Some of mine were too, such as the "submarine" mystery.

    Here is one from Germany... without "postkarte" but with the stamp and address marks... What does that make of it? :dunno:
    • Aangemaakt 17 nov 2006 op 17:42
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    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 10:28
    • #113601
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    Duitsland

    Hi LMDC,
    Thanks for those nice comments!
    I've just been learning a lot these last 3 months on the "Dellcamp" forums... I just picked RPPC here and used it 5 minutes later...
    "Vrai" or "Véritable": Vrai does mean veritable as well as true, so you can use both. "Véritable" is probably more "market-friendly" (yes, we too!) ... But it would have to be VraiE: La photo.
    My choice would be to stick to what's written on the card.

    If I stopped at that gas station, I would take a look at the real Mississippi, not the postcard...
    Just like here:
    Link (http)
    Link (http)

    As a result of these posts (on the French side), I was compelled to buy this "atomic" 1948 Curteich linen from cousin Naguito... while some discuss dissecting postcards to find out whether there actually is fabric in there...
    In my opinion: No there isn't! :no: It's just a texture pressed into the paper by some means... before or after printing? ;) The Quest goes on, caïmons!
    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 09:27
    • #113593
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    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 13:20
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    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 13:20
    • #113650
    Thank you -ALF- for that information, I'll have to spend a few hours on that website which seems quite large (150 NEW pages per month??!! :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: )

    LMDC, well they sounded serious about it... but I'm sure there must be a linen equivalent of "drouilles", which are (in Belgian I guess) those dull cards of sacré-coeurs, eiffel towers and châteaux de versailles that could burn in front of your eyes without invoking a tear... yes, even from you!
    As for my own conclusion, I did not vivisect anyone, I just have so few linens... I closely examined the "Utah salt beds" card shown on the French side, which was damaged when some one tore away the salt bag it came with. Enough entrails exposed for this bit of divination...

    Bye
    Manu :beer:
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    Frankrijk

    Thank you -ALF- for that information, I'll have to spend a few hours on that website which seems quite large (150 NEW pages per month??!! :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: )

    LMDC, well they sounded serious about it... but I'm sure there must be a linen equivalent of "drouilles", which are (in Belgian I guess) those dull cards of sacré-coeurs, eiffel towers and châteaux de versailles that could burn in front of your eyes without invoking a tear... yes, even from you!
    As for my own conclusion, I did not vivisect anyone, I just have so few linens... I closely examined the "Utah salt beds" card shown on the French side, which was damaged when some one tore away the salt bag it came with. Enough entrails exposed for this bit of divination...

    Bye
    Manu :beer:
    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 15:27
    • #113679
    And by the way, there's a new linen exhibit started by Naguito, with some bridges and tunnels... ;) :applause: (cool self-advertising! :D )

    Link (http)

    :pc_user: :beer:
  • alan65
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    Hi LMDC,
    Thanks for those nice comments!
    I've just been learning a lot these last 3 months on the "Dellcamp" forums... I just picked RPPC here and used it 5 minutes later...
    "Vrai" or "Véritable": Vrai does mean veritable as well as true, so you can use both. "Véritable" is probably more "market-friendly" (yes, we too!) ... But it would have to be VraiE: La photo.
    My choice would be to stick to what's written on the card.

    If I stopped at that gas station, I would take a look at the real Mississippi, not the postcard...
    Just like here:
    Link (http)
    Link (http)

    As a result of these posts (on the French side), I was compelled to buy this "atomic" 1948 Curteich linen from cousin Naguito... while some discuss dissecting postcards to find out whether there actually is fabric in there...
    In my opinion: No there isn't! :no: It's just a texture pressed into the paper by some means... before or after printing? ;) The Quest goes on, caïmons!
    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 09:27
    • #113593
    Hi, Manug

    To answer your question: "is there really fabric in a linen postcard?"

    Werther and Mott tell us that Curt Teich used the word "linen" to describe his cards because of the 'weave' design he put in the paper. His cards--and others like Curteich--had a higher cloth fiber content. Cloth fiber is called 'rag' which also connotes "fabric" but it's not pieces of cloth cut up into small squares or anything. It's fiber that could become fabric, I suppose, but instead it's put into the soggy mush that becomes the paper for his postcards.

    The weave design is put in first, then the ink. The weave allows the ink to make a fuller, richer, deeper impression giving us the beautiful colors of linen PCs. You won't find pieces of cloth if you dissect the poor linen card--if you look under a microscope, you would notice similar fibers, though, of a nice shirt! It appears to be a question of how exactly you want to define "fabric" or "cloth fiber" to answer your question of what's in a linen PC.

    Stop the French vivisection of postcards now! ;)

    Hope this helps!

    p.s.--that Chicago freight subway is now listed. . .
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    And by the way, there's a new linen exhibit started by Naguito, with some bridges and tunnels... ;) :applause: (cool self-advertising! :D )

    Link (http)

    :pc_user: :beer:
    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 15:30
    • #113680
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    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 17:51
    • #113694
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  • Gepetto50
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    Hi, Manug

    To answer your question: "is there really fabric in a linen postcard?"

    Werther and Mott tell us that Curt Teich used the word "linen" to describe his cards because of the 'weave' design he put in the paper. His cards--and others like Curteich--had a higher cloth fiber content. Cloth fiber is called 'rag' which also connotes "fabric" but it's not pieces of cloth cut up into small squares or anything. It's fiber that could become fabric, I suppose, but instead it's put into the soggy mush that becomes the paper for his postcards.

    The weave design is put in first, then the ink. The weave allows the ink to make a fuller, richer, deeper impression giving us the beautiful colors of linen PCs. You won't find pieces of cloth if you dissect the poor linen card--if you look under a microscope, you would notice similar fibers, though, of a nice shirt! It appears to be a question of how exactly you want to define "fabric" or "cloth fiber" to answer your question of what's in a linen PC.

    Stop the French vivisection of postcards now! ;)

    Hope this helps!

    p.s.--that Chicago freight subway is now listed. . .
    • Aangemaakt 28 nov 2006 op 16:42
    • #113689
    Hello, cool , that's a belgian vivisection of a american linen-postcard.
    With excuses for the spectacle, beurkh!!!!!!!!
    Photo over thin paper, textile fiber with paper, and thick paper.

    Best regards, Gepetto
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    Hello, cool , that's a belgian vivisection of a american linen-postcard.
    With excuses for the spectacle, beurkh!!!!!!!!
    Photo over thin paper, textile fiber with paper, and thick paper.

    Best regards, Gepetto
    • Aangemaakt 29 nov 2006 op 11:49
    • #113842
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