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Paypal payments in the new fees system

  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Why does it say on the invoice that the purchase amount I, the seller, charge, includes VAT?
    This is not true. I do not charge VAT. Anyone looking at this would think I am charging VAT, and there are serious legal and tax implications for this!
    • Posté le 16 mai 2024 à 12:04
    • #1743917
    Same here, I've raised a urgent ticket as you cannot mention VAT on an invoice as a non registered business.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30387x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Same here, I've raised a urgent ticket as you cannot mention VAT on an invoice as a non registered business.
    • Posté le 17 mai 2024 à 02:18
    • #1744988
    I suspect I will not be renewing my subscription to Delcampe when it expires in the autumn. The site is stressful chaos.
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30387x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Same here, I've raised a urgent ticket as you cannot mention VAT on an invoice as a non registered business.
    • Posté le 17 mai 2024 à 02:18
    • #1744988
    I had a response from Miranda "Purchases includes taxes on Delcampe (platform fees included) and are paid by the buyers.
    The wording "Purchases incl. VAT" will soon be changed to "Purchases incl. tax" but the word tax will remain as the price paid by your buyers include taxes"

    That's utter madness. just changing the wording will resolve nothing for sellers or buyers, and the invoice will remain a confusing mess.

    I am beginning to think it would be wiser for me to close all my sales sooner rather than later. I'll maybe give Delcampe one more month to see if the situation gets any better. But I'm at the end of my tether.

    At the start of the year I didn't think I'd be seriously thinking of leaving Delcampe after 17 years.
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    I had a response from Miranda "Purchases includes taxes on Delcampe (platform fees included) and are paid by the buyers.
    The wording "Purchases incl. VAT" will soon be changed to "Purchases incl. tax" but the word tax will remain as the price paid by your buyers include taxes"

    That's utter madness. just changing the wording will resolve nothing for sellers or buyers, and the invoice will remain a confusing mess.

    I am beginning to think it would be wiser for me to close all my sales sooner rather than later. I'll maybe give Delcampe one more month to see if the situation gets any better. But I'm at the end of my tether.

    At the start of the year I didn't think I'd be seriously thinking of leaving Delcampe after 17 years.
    • Posté le 17 mai 2024 à 14:27
    • #1745504
    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
    PRO standard

    223 messages

    Royaume-Uni

    I had a response from Miranda "Purchases includes taxes on Delcampe (platform fees included) and are paid by the buyers.
    The wording "Purchases incl. VAT" will soon be changed to "Purchases incl. tax" but the word tax will remain as the price paid by your buyers include taxes"

    That's utter madness. just changing the wording will resolve nothing for sellers or buyers, and the invoice will remain a confusing mess.

    I am beginning to think it would be wiser for me to close all my sales sooner rather than later. I'll maybe give Delcampe one more month to see if the situation gets any better. But I'm at the end of my tether.

    At the start of the year I didn't think I'd be seriously thinking of leaving Delcampe after 17 years.
    • Posté le 17 mai 2024 à 14:27
    • #1745504
    Ive received the sa.e reply.

    I've asked what taxes the buyer pays the seller

    If it's in fact just vat in the buyers fees I've asked them to amend their section of the invoice and remove it from ours (unless the seller is vat registered).

    Delcampe used to be a lot better at this regulatory stuff.
  • merlion
    merlion 100% (45283x)
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    162 messages

    Hongrie

    I had a response from Miranda "Purchases includes taxes on Delcampe (platform fees included) and are paid by the buyers.
    The wording "Purchases incl. VAT" will soon be changed to "Purchases incl. tax" but the word tax will remain as the price paid by your buyers include taxes"

    That's utter madness. just changing the wording will resolve nothing for sellers or buyers, and the invoice will remain a confusing mess.

    I am beginning to think it would be wiser for me to close all my sales sooner rather than later. I'll maybe give Delcampe one more month to see if the situation gets any better. But I'm at the end of my tether.

    At the start of the year I didn't think I'd be seriously thinking of leaving Delcampe after 17 years.
    • Posté le 17 mai 2024 à 14:27
    • #1745504
    I'm feeling extremely frustrated with this situation. I have to create an invoice for every sale. For Mangopay payments, I can invoice without the Delcampe fee, but for PayPal payments, I have to include both the PayPal and Delcampe fees. I have no idea how to manage this going forward.

    I've been selling on Delcampe since 2007 without interruption, investing countless hours in uploading items to my shop. Unfortunately, I have no other international platform to sell on, just a much smaller and different local one.

    Lately, buyer activity in my shop has dropped drastically. I need to find a solution because I have invoices to pay. I haven't been able to pay my taxes for this month yet. On Monday, I need to go to the bank to deposit some cash from home into my account to cover the taxes. :whiteflag:
  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30387x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Ive received the sa.e reply.

    I've asked what taxes the buyer pays the seller

    If it's in fact just vat in the buyers fees I've asked them to amend their section of the invoice and remove it from ours (unless the seller is vat registered).

    Delcampe used to be a lot better at this regulatory stuff.
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 01:12
    • #1745627
    I talked to a friend last night, and asked him what he thought of the invoicing situation, both the so called buyers fees going into sellers paypal accounts, and the tax notes on the invoice, (before he retired he was the global credit analyst for a major multinational company, handling their big accounts, so he knows a lot about standard invoicing procedures). and he basically confirmed all the fears raised by sellers are legitimate, and hoped that Delcampe would eventually see sense!
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    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 09:08
    • #1746119
    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 09:15
    • #1746125
    Professional sellers (at least in the UK) are 'No VAT' until they register (which they must do once their income is over a turnover threshold).
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    Professional sellers (at least in the UK) are 'No VAT' until they register (which they must do once their income is over a turnover threshold).
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 09:32
    • #1746137
    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
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  • sammlerkalle
    sammlerkalle 100% (12545x)
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    Allemagne

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    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 09:15
    • #1746125
    In Germany there is also a small business regulation. Small businesses are not allowed to state VAT separately on invoices. But this isn't just about sales tax. For income tax, it is even more urgent that we get a bill. I'm currently having this checked and the first impression is that Delcampe needs to change a lot of its behavior, like actually all the sellers from different countries who speak up about the topic say that. It's not yet clear which way we will proceed decided. Delcampe was given long enough time to act on its own initiative and instead recently announced publicly that they are refusing to refuse us the bill we are entitled to.
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    Professional sellers (at least in the UK) are 'No VAT' until they register (which they must do once their income is over a turnover threshold).
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 09:32
    • #1746137
    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 10:04
    • #1746167
    The standard I am not an accountant/lawyer disclaimer! My understanding is below, as a non VAT registered business.

    The tax office use a number of criteria, one of the main ones for individuals selling online is you buy items with the intent to sell them. If you are doing that you need to state you are a business (or professional in delcampe terms) for consumer protection laws, and pay tax on profits.

    Not all businesses need to register for VAT. the business turnover needs to be over the threshold of around GBP 85k for mandatory registration. Then as you say you can be on a VAT margin scheme (Differenciated in your example) or standard VAT.

    If you are not VAT registered you cannot issue invoices mentioning VAT as your buyers cannot claim VAT back on purchases from you (as you have not paid it in the first place).
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messages

    Royaume-Uni

    The standard I am not an accountant/lawyer disclaimer! My understanding is below, as a non VAT registered business.

    The tax office use a number of criteria, one of the main ones for individuals selling online is you buy items with the intent to sell them. If you are doing that you need to state you are a business (or professional in delcampe terms) for consumer protection laws, and pay tax on profits.

    Not all businesses need to register for VAT. the business turnover needs to be over the threshold of around GBP 85k for mandatory registration. Then as you say you can be on a VAT margin scheme (Differenciated in your example) or standard VAT.

    If you are not VAT registered you cannot issue invoices mentioning VAT as your buyers cannot claim VAT back on purchases from you (as you have not paid it in the first place).
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 13:33
    • #1746254
    The HMRC page is here Lien (https)
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    The HMRC page is here Lien (https)
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 14:10
    • #1746284
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  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30387x)
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    Royaume-Uni

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    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 15:19
    • #1746299
    That capital gains tax list is just examples, and not exhaustive. And there is an annual threshold
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    That capital gains tax list is just examples, and not exhaustive. And there is an annual threshold
    • Posté le 18 mai 2024 à 17:49
    • #1746329
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  • mjocovers
    mjocovers 100% (30387x)
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    Royaume-Uni

    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
    • Posté le 19 mai 2024 à 02:51
    • #1746392
    Proper, unambiguous, invoices/receipts are essential whether the seller is private or professional.

    Never before have I seen such invoices/receipts from reputable businesses. like the ones now being issued by Delcampe
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messages

    Royaume-Uni

    Support have got back to me, and said that the invoices are compliant with belgian accounting practice and "For your own accounting, you can add "non-recoverable VAT"; "0% VAT" or "no tax" according to the rules of your country, but we are not able to change the behavior of the site for each specific country, we align ourselves with the Belgian standard."

    I've gone back again with an example invoice using the old system which did not have the 'incl. tax'. The first iteration of the new invoices did not have that text either.

    As to the proposed workarounds, they are not going to work. I do not charge 0% VAT (that is only allowed for food and some other goods in the UK) nor am I on a margin scheme (which is 'non recoverable' VAT) and saying incl Tax and then No Tax at the bottom is just contradictory and makes the entire invoice incomprehensible. My current wording for a legal statement may be :

    "This is not a valid invoice for tax purposes. Steve Hill Stamps is not registered to collect VAT in the UK as we trade under the VAT threshold. Invoices on Delcampe now have the statement 'includes VAT/tax' on their system generated invoices for all sellers making them incorrect for smaller sellers like myself and incompatible with UK accounting practice. Please raise a ticket with Delcampe if you would like to see this fixed. A valid UK invoice can be provided on request whilst the sale remains on my Delcampe screens for your tax records."

    Alternatively I may just give up as this is all too much hard work.
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    Support have got back to me, and said that the invoices are compliant with belgian accounting practice and "For your own accounting, you can add "non-recoverable VAT"; "0% VAT" or "no tax" according to the rules of your country, but we are not able to change the behavior of the site for each specific country, we align ourselves with the Belgian standard."

    I've gone back again with an example invoice using the old system which did not have the 'incl. tax'. The first iteration of the new invoices did not have that text either.

    As to the proposed workarounds, they are not going to work. I do not charge 0% VAT (that is only allowed for food and some other goods in the UK) nor am I on a margin scheme (which is 'non recoverable' VAT) and saying incl Tax and then No Tax at the bottom is just contradictory and makes the entire invoice incomprehensible. My current wording for a legal statement may be :

    "This is not a valid invoice for tax purposes. Steve Hill Stamps is not registered to collect VAT in the UK as we trade under the VAT threshold. Invoices on Delcampe now have the statement 'includes VAT/tax' on their system generated invoices for all sellers making them incorrect for smaller sellers like myself and incompatible with UK accounting practice. Please raise a ticket with Delcampe if you would like to see this fixed. A valid UK invoice can be provided on request whilst the sale remains on my Delcampe screens for your tax records."

    Alternatively I may just give up as this is all too much hard work.
    • Posté le 21 mai 2024 à 09:23
    • #1747856
    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
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    223 messages

    Royaume-Uni

    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
    • Posté le 21 mai 2024 à 09:53
    • #1747877
    DAC 7 isnt the issue here. I'm sure everyone who sells here is registered to pay tax if they should ( /sarcasm).

    If you are a pro though its important that your invoices are correct. The main issue here is that another business who buys from me cannot claim VAT back from a private/non VAT registered seller transaction. Including that text increases the risk that they make an error and do so incorrectly, thats why UK law says that non VAT registered traders cannot mention VAT on an invoice.

    The issue is that Belgium may not have sole traders that do not collect VAT like the UK does (I know some EU countries have a EUR0 registration requirement for VAT, unlike the UK's GBP85k registration for VAT). They've then coded the invoice incorrectly to show 'incl VAT' all the time.

    The old Delcampe invoices worked fine with this and removed the 'incl VAT' for non VAT registered professional sellers. I'm just asking them to make the new invoices work like the old ones (and the first iteration of the new invoices) in this respect.

    I doubt Delcampe can survive with only Belgian sellers, so they need to make the site compliant enough that other country's businesses can list here without legal hurdles.
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    DAC 7 isnt the issue here. I'm sure everyone who sells here is registered to pay tax if they should ( /sarcasm).

    If you are a pro though its important that your invoices are correct. The main issue here is that another business who buys from me cannot claim VAT back from a private/non VAT registered seller transaction. Including that text increases the risk that they make an error and do so incorrectly, thats why UK law says that non VAT registered traders cannot mention VAT on an invoice.

    The issue is that Belgium may not have sole traders that do not collect VAT like the UK does (I know some EU countries have a EUR0 registration requirement for VAT, unlike the UK's GBP85k registration for VAT). They've then coded the invoice incorrectly to show 'incl VAT' all the time.

    The old Delcampe invoices worked fine with this and removed the 'incl VAT' for non VAT registered professional sellers. I'm just asking them to make the new invoices work like the old ones (and the first iteration of the new invoices) in this respect.

    I doubt Delcampe can survive with only Belgian sellers, so they need to make the site compliant enough that other country's businesses can list here without legal hurdles.
    • Posté le 21 mai 2024 à 10:19
    • #1747889
    Les informations ne sont plus disponibles car le compte de cet utilisateur est supprimé (Règlement RGPD)
  • stevehillstamps
    stevehillstamps 100% (14520x)
    PRO standard

    223 messages

    Royaume-Uni

    Support have got back to me, and said that the invoices are compliant with belgian accounting practice and "For your own accounting, you can add "non-recoverable VAT"; "0% VAT" or "no tax" according to the rules of your country, but we are not able to change the behavior of the site for each specific country, we align ourselves with the Belgian standard."

    I've gone back again with an example invoice using the old system which did not have the 'incl. tax'. The first iteration of the new invoices did not have that text either.

    As to the proposed workarounds, they are not going to work. I do not charge 0% VAT (that is only allowed for food and some other goods in the UK) nor am I on a margin scheme (which is 'non recoverable' VAT) and saying incl Tax and then No Tax at the bottom is just contradictory and makes the entire invoice incomprehensible. My current wording for a legal statement may be :

    "This is not a valid invoice for tax purposes. Steve Hill Stamps is not registered to collect VAT in the UK as we trade under the VAT threshold. Invoices on Delcampe now have the statement 'includes VAT/tax' on their system generated invoices for all sellers making them incorrect for smaller sellers like myself and incompatible with UK accounting practice. Please raise a ticket with Delcampe if you would like to see this fixed. A valid UK invoice can be provided on request whilst the sale remains on my Delcampe screens for your tax records."

    Alternatively I may just give up as this is all too much hard work.
    • Posté le 21 mai 2024 à 09:23
    • #1747856
    Some good news, Delcampe will now be fixing the issue with 'inc. Taxes' appearing.

    They will be making 'inc. Taxes/VAT' to only display for VAT registered sellers at some point in the future. Although there is no timescale, I'm hopeful that it can be done reasonably quickly as its just adding a condition onto some text.

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