The new method of PAYPAL billing... big problem

Hello,

From/until April 2nd Did it still work correctly with the PAYPAL payment, the seller's net prices were displayed for the individual items (minus the Delcampe commission) and apart from the PAYPAL fees, nothing else was deducted. This is correct so far and could be recorded without any problems. We sellers have to record the gross receipt of payment, because we receive an invoice from PAYPAL for the PAYPAL fees. As just seen, the amounts to be paid by the buyer are now displayed and a partner fee is also deducted. Now where do we get the invoice for this partner fee? This also creates a VAT problem for us, because we would have to write this fee onto the customer invoice, otherwise it would not match the receipt of payment and then VAT would be due. Sorry... but what nonsense did Delcampe come up with. If it stays that way, commercial sellers will no longer be able to use PAYPAL as a payment method and that would certainly have a significant impact on Delcampe's sales. This question about billing and what these ridiculous fees are all about at PAYPAL was asked by me several times before and there was never a qualified answer to it, now we have a big problem!!!! The process that Delcampe expects of us sellers here is simply a complete catastrophe... also for the buyers, by the way, we have to do constant educational work here, which takes a considerable amount of time. !!!!

Kind regards

And to add to that... there is now another problem with PAYPAL. Due to the elimination of the processing fee for small orders, the relatively high PAYPAL fees for such purchases can no longer be compensated for... this means that no more money actually reaches the seller. It must therefore be possible to define/set a minimum amount for a PAYPAL payment as quickly as possible. If there is no quick answer, the only option is to generally not allow PAYPAL payments for the time being. Kind regards

See my thread on the english forums here. Link (https) .

It's clear that buyer fees are entering my paypal account and then leaving it as a separate transaction (it even shows as two transaction ID's on detailed statements). You even pay additional paypal fees on the Buyer fees!

Im not even VAT registered and it causes issues for me as I need a valid receipt/invoice to claim the fee deduction as an allowable expense in my tax affairs. Their 'solution' of using the buyer invoice for this is laughable, and not compliant with any accounting practice I'm aware of (and not sufficient - the buyer invoice is really poor, and is only just sufficient to declare income, not separate it between myself and Delcampe. They are suggesting geting a clculator out to calculate what the buyer fees actually are on them). You can't use your own invoice to prove your outgoings, you need one from the supplier you paid, i.e. delcampe.

My complaint has been escalated to management and my hoped for resolution at minimum is a VAT invoice from them to me for the recovery of the buyer fees from my account. That will at least allow me to continue selling here while they work out the rest of the issues.

They would have been better leaving things a seller fees, but were two scared of the backlash over the increases so have hidden them with the move to the buyer (which they have well and truely mucked up in paypal at least)

I'm not sure that closing paypal only works as the same issue could be present in Mangopay. The accounting is just so poor that you cant see what is going on, but the paypal implementation does not inspire confidence.

I agree that unless this is sorted out fast, professionals will have no choice but to shut up shop, I can't have significant deductions from my accounts that are not supported by an invoice.

Hello, I don't see the problem with MangoPAY at the moment, because the seller is credited with the net amounts and the buyer also receives an invoice with the net amounts, so that's the same in that respect. There is chaos at PAYPAL, so now you have to use your calculator to work out what you have to charge the buyer. The way it was regulated at PAYPAL on April 2nd, 2024 is OK, the way it is from April 3rd. It's pure chaos now that you have to go back to the version from 2.4. be turned back, at least until it is clear how the whole thing will continue.... and then there is the problem that partial refunds are no longer possible, only complete cancellations. There is therefore no longer any possibility of refunding the buyer the shipping costs if something is combined, which does not work automatically at Delcampe due to the limited options and there is also no longer any possibility of giving the buyer a discount, e.g. in the event of a complaint if the buyer But still want to keep the item. In my opinion, the Delcampe system will have significant problems in the future... and of course it's not possible for the sellers to pay the PAYPAL fees on Delcampe's commission, that's probably a belated April joke! !! Kind regards

We cant tell what is going on is my issue. Click on the detail for each mangopay transaction.

Can you tell what is actually being paid into your account? Can you tell whether the buyer fees and import fees are actually touching your account then being deducted (as in paypal)? All are mentioned in the payment detail, and its only paypal's superior statement/transaction records that allow us to see what is actually going on.

Neither import fees nor platform costs (or payment menthod) have any place in the sellers detail of your mangopay transaction, they should only be present in the buyers detail.

Once the promised proper statements arrive for mangopay (as they are obliged to provide by regulators but are not currently doing) we could be in the same situation as paypal.

Splitting payments on the fly is difficult to do safely technically (think about rollback on a database if either insert fails). Its a lot easier to have a deposit, then a withdrawal but that leads to accounting issues like paypal has at the moment.

For a properly clean payments split on the fly have a look at Ebay. You'll find no mention of import VAT anywhere in the sellers payment section. You as seller receive only the amount net of the import VAT.

If it were as easy as simply no longer allowing PayPal, we would have a small solution. You would forego a large part of the income, but at least you would be on the right side of the book in terms of accounting. But that doesn't work in Germany. As an online retailer, you have to offer at least one payment method that is free for the buyer and also common. The "and" actually means that both conditions must be met for this method. Mangopay is free, but not common, almost no one here knows that. There are also judgments that more well-known methods have not accepted in this regard. I think other countries also have similar regulations. I know that some dealers are already doing this at the moment, but it's probably only a matter of time before the first ones are warned, which will cost a few hundred euros. Delcampe made a real mess there. The right way would be if the money were first sent to Delcampe and then passed on to us at a reduced rate. But Delcampe probably needs a banking license for that. And because they wanted to avoid this, they probably chose this path. But now all sellers have a problem and if you don't take this seriously at Delcampe, more and more will probably leave when they see that you have to record 110 as income, but only get 100 and don't even get a receipt for the 10 to declare it as a cost. Mangopay doesn't have this problem, but there are no account statements like you get from Paypal. There's just this completely inadequate overview page that doesn't even show the name Delcampe or the seller it's for when you print it out.

The next problem is that this process causes us to pay additional PayPal fees. We pay not only a proportion of our actual income, but also a proportion of the purchase fees that Delcampe collects. A time ago, we had to make this so-called “update” with PayPal to allow Delcampe to do this. So we help you get it done even without a banking license. But instead of simply being grateful to us, they also make us pay the costs.

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Germany has probably passed laws that all online B2C (business to customer) transactions to customers in Germany are subject to German VAT and other consumer protection laws, even if made by offshore companies. To access the German market, they need to play by their rules.

The UK has done similar for VAT, hence my payments to Delcampe are subject to UK VAT.

I just see that Mangopay has the same problem. I received a payment this way yesterday.
Sale:
Goods: 2.75 euros
Shipping: 1.30 euros
Delcampe fee: 0.58 euros
The notation (Api) that you receive from Delcampe says that you have received a payment of 4.63 euros. So the full amount must be booked here too.

That was my worry above, the accounting reporting on the website was just so poor that I had no proof. Thanks for providing supporting evidence, please make sure you report this as a support ticket with example screenshots. They did not progress my paypal complaint until I did.

Hello, I see it a little more differently. With MangoPAY payment, the amount does not actually go into the seller's account, but is split during the payment. The additional information about the difference between the price the buyer pays and the price at which we sell to the seller does not have to be displayed in the seller's MangoPAY account statement. The old principle "less is more" applies here. In the seller's MangoPAY view, the price that the buyer has to pay actually has no place. Likewise, the buyer's price does not have to be included in the email with the sales notification. The buyer receives an invoice from Delcampe with the fees for the difference. The buyer therefore receives two invoices, both of which together result in the amount that the buyer has paid. In contrast to PAYPAL, the MangoPAY view is part of the Delcampe website and is therefore actually a legal part of Delcampe. This is also the difference to billing on eBay. It is questionable whether this construction to avoid a banking license will have legal validity in the long term. In any case, inquiries about securing MangoPAY accounts have so far gone uncommented.

Things are a little different with PAYPAL. On April 2nd If the PAYPAL billing was still correct, the net amounts were posted for the individual items. So everything was OK, because the amount that went into the seller's PAYPAL account corresponded to the invoice that went to the buyer. However, the gross amounts, i.e. the amount that Delcampe charges to the buyer, are currently posted. The entire amount is now credited to the seller's account and the "Delcampe partner fee" is deducted directly. This results in accounting overkill. Delacmpe with PAYPAL as service provider/vicarious agent now collects its fees from the seller's account, for which Delcampe invoices the buyer. In this case, the seller would also have to receive an invoice from Delcampe or PAYPAL for these fees and the seller would also have to charge the Delcampe fee to the buyer....

Kind regards


Hallo, ich sehe das noch etwas differenzierter. Bei der MangoPAY-Zahlung geht der Betrag ja eigentlich nicht auf dem Konto des Verkäufers ein, sondern wird bei der Zahlung gesplittet. Die zusätzliche Information zur Differenz zwischem dem Preis den der Käufer bezahlt und dem Preis zu dem wir Verkäufer verkaufen müßte in der MangoPAY Konto Abrechnung des Verkäufers ja gar nicht angezeigt werden. Hier gilt der alte Grundsatz, "weniger ist mehr". In der MangoPAY-Ansicht des Verkäufers hat der Preis den der Käufer zahlen muß also eigentlich nichts zu suchen. Ebenso müßte in der email mit der Verkaufsmeldung der Preis des Käufers nicht enthalten sein. Für die Differenz erhält der Käufer ja eine Rechnung von Delcampe mit den Gebühren. Der Käufer erhält also zwei Rechnungen, beide zusammen ergeben den Betrag den der Käufer bezahlt hat. Die MangoPAY-Ansicht ist ja im Gegensatz zu PAYPAL Bestandteil der Delcampe-Webseite, somit eigentlich rechtlicher Bestandteil von Delcampe. Das ist auch der Unterschied zu der Abrechnung bei ebay. Ob diese Konstruktion zur Vermeidung einer Banklizenz auf Dauer rechtlichen Bestand haben wird ist fraglich. Anfragen nach der Absicherung der MangoPAY-Konten blieben bis jetzt jedenfalls unkommentiert.

Bei PAYPAL ist das etwas anders. Am 2.4. hat die PAYPAL-Abrechnung noch gestimmt, da wurden die Nettobeträge bei den einzelnen Positionen gebucht. Somit war alles OK, denn der Betrag, der auf dem PAYPAL-Konto des Verkäufers einging entsprach der Rechnung die an den Käufer ging. Aktuell werden aber die Bruttobeträge, also der Betrag den Delcampe an den Käufer berechnet gebucht. Der gesamte Betrag geht jetzt also auf dem Konto des Verkäufers ein und die "Delcampe Partner-Gebühr" wird direkt wieder abgezogen. Das ergibt einen buchhaltungstechnischen Overkill. Delacmpe mit PAYPAL als Dienstleister/Erfüllungsgehilfe zieht ja jetzt vom Konto des Verkäufers seine Gebühren ein, für die Delcampe die Rechnung an den Käufer stellt. In diesem Fall müßte aber der Verkäufer von Delcampe oder von PAYPAL ebenso eine Rechnung über diese Gebühren bekommen und damit müßten die Verkäufer die Delcampe-Gebühr auch an den Käufer berechnen....

MfG

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Hello, since this is about complicated legal questions, it must also be clear what the author's original meaning is. Kind regards

De informatie is niet meer beschikbaar omdat de rekening van deze gebruiker is verwijderd (AVG)

De informatie is niet meer beschikbaar omdat de rekening van deze gebruiker is verwijderd (AVG)

Look for example here: Link (https) (German - at "II. Einschränkung durch das Verbraucherrecht: Kostenfreiheit, Gängigkeit und Zumutbarkeit".

I agree that is how Mangopay should work. but then again that is how paypal should have worked. Accounts need to be done on what actually happens, not on what you hoped would happen.

My fear is that you are being credited in full, then are deducting them like Paypal . It possible they've just reused the 'Delcampe Pay Fees' code for the 'Buyer Fees' . The accounting in mangopay is so poor you cant tell, and with the mess in Paypal I'd like a definitive answer about what actually happens. A vague 'on the fly' answer no is no longer sufficient for me to continue to use long term.

Hello,

So in principle it could all be very simple. For me as a seller, it's not really important to see what Delcampe ultimately charges the buyer, or if so, you just have to look at the item. All invoices only have to state what concerns me as the seller, the same applies to the buyer.

There could be two views, one with sales and one with purchases, so not one with payments for everything.

The email sales notification only needs to contain the price that I have set as the seller.

In the purchase report only the price that Delcampe charges to the buyer.

For PAYPAL back to the status as of April 2nd, 2024

Then there shouldn't be any problems for anyone and Delcampe can finally do promotions... half fees at Easter etc... and if Delcampe realizes that 30 cents per item is simply too much, then they'll just reduce it back to 10 cents or stagger it according to the sales price. No matter what change comes, it doesn't always lead to chaos for the sellers.

If the price ultimately offered on Delcampe is not in line with the market, no one will buy it anyway, no matter who pays the fees, all costs are ultimately included in the item price.

Kind regards

Hello, basically it's just the wrong account. The booking in this type would have to be made on the buyer's PAYPAL account and not on the seller's account. Hello Delcampe, take a look at what your software is doing. Kind regards

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No. At Delcampe, payment by direct debit or bank transfer is not possible and is not permitted by Delcampe. What you can do is top up your Mangopay account with bank transfer. The actual payment for the goods then takes place in a second step, namely from the Mangopay account to the seller. And then the goods are not paid for with a bank transfer, but with Mangopay. The fact that you top up your PayPal account with a bank transfer and then use it to pay for goods does not make this payment a payment by bank transfer, but rather a payment by PayPal. The same would apply if you topped up your Mangopay account via PayPal before paying, even then the payment for goods - and that's what we're talking about here - would not be a PayPal payment. Someone who only allows Mangopay expressly does not offer the option of paying for their goods with bank transfer. This can also be seen in the fact that Delcampe, for example, specifies Mangopay as the payment method when making a payment, even if this account was previously topped up via bank transfer. There are just two processes, one is the filling, the other is the option provided to pay for the goods and the second part is what the BGB paragraph is about.

Hello, I think the discussion is losing the thread a bit here, it's not about MangoPAY. By the way, there are also payments via credit card as a source, which is then also stated in the payment method, which would then be something like a direct debit... The point is that the billing now appears in the seller's PAYPAL account belongs to the buyer's PAYPAL account. If Delcampe invoices the buyer for the platform fees, this must also be recorded in the buyer's PAYPAL account and not in the seller's PAYPAL account. It was still the same on April 2nd, 2024, as I can see from my PAYPAL incoming payments. From April 3rd it wasn't like that anymore. In the simplest case, it's just a software problem with Delcampe and just needs to be corrected. So it would be nice if someone from Delcampe would comment on this or provide information as to when the problem will be solved. Kind regards

De informatie is niet meer beschikbaar omdat de rekening van deze gebruiker is verwijderd (AVG)

De informatie is niet meer beschikbaar omdat de rekening van deze gebruiker is verwijderd (AVG)